I'd rather be reborn

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby yogya » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:13 am

Nice exchanges but one thing I like about this thread is the openness of kmath.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:04 am

kmath wrote:I'm starting to think I'd rather be born again. I mean, what's the point of not existing? The absence of dukkha? I'd rather live and suffer than not have ANY experience.

People say, Nibbana is not non-existence. I don't know how they can say that. If you are not born, you don't exist -- period. How could it be any more complicated than that?

People say there is no "you" existing now. And fine I accept there is no permanent "me-ness." But I'm here. I mean, I exist in a conventional sense.

People say: you have had so many lives -- you don't just want to carry on forever. But look, I can't remember any of those lives, so to me, this is the first one.

Anyway I know this topic has been debated ad infinitum. But I think it's important, so if you have any comments, please post below.

Thanks,

kmath :jedi:




Why not focus on the suffering in your life and how best to be free of it, instead of worrying about concepts like existence or non-existence?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:57 am

clw_uk wrote:
Why not focus on the suffering in your life and how best to be free of it, instead of worrying about concepts like existence or non-existence?


I find it so irksome when people just write off a question like that. I mean, if you don't want to discuss it then just don't post on this topic.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby culaavuso » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:12 am

kmath wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Why not focus on the suffering in your life and how best to be free of it, instead of worrying about concepts like existence or non-existence?


I find it so irksome when people just write off a question like that. I mean, if you don't want to discuss it then just don't post on this topic.


Interestingly, there was a very similar exchange between the Buddha and Ven. Malunkyaputta. He, too, was irked.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.063.than.html
MN63: Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta wrote:Then, when it was evening, Ven. Malunkyaputta arose from seclusion and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, just now, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness: 'These positions that are undeclared, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One... I don't approve, I don't accept that the Blessed One has not declared them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he declares to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not declare to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life.'
... (snip) ...
"Malunkyaputta, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,"' the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

"It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.


Instead of worrying about whether or not you will exist in the future, why not focus on whether or not there is stress or suffering in your experience here and now? If the answer is yes, why not try to end it? Isn't that the more immediate concern, regardless of whether you will exist in the future or not?
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:26 am

Lots of people responded to my original question in ways that were actually helpful.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:05 am

kmath wrote:Lots of people responded to my original question in ways that were actually helpful.




You asked for advice, I gave mine :shrug:


If you don't agree that's cool but don't ask for everyone's opinion then complain when they give it, seems a bit silly to me
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:09 am

Instead of worrying about whether or not you will exist in the future, why not focus on whether or not there is stress or suffering in your experience here and now? If the answer is yes, why not try to end it? Isn't that the more immediate concern, regardless of whether you will exist in the future or not?



:twothumbsup:


With awareness practice, however, one is not being asked to believe in anything or to operate from any theory - or even to regard ones own preferences for the afterlife - but to recognize the way it actually is at this moment.


..."So this helps me to recognize that I don't have to know what happens after physical death, because I cant know, and it doesn't really matter. I am not asking for some kind of affirmation to make me feel better"



Ajahn sumedho, knowing not knowing
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:47 pm

.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:07 pm

Because if Nirvana = complete non-existence


Your words not mine. Who said nirvana = no -existence?


then your solution to suffering is to permanently snuff yourself out of existence merely to escape whatever menial stress or suffering you're enduring at the moment.


Why when you can exist without suffering right now? I also think your misreading my posts.

That sounds like the path of a very weak, pitiful creature indeed.



"I enjoy eating pizza, but sometimes my pizza gets cold. I think I am going to completely eradicate myself so I do not have to endure the relentless torture of eating cold pizza for one second longer!! OMG IT HURTS, I HATE COLD PIZZA! SOMEONE TEACH ME HOW TO SEND MYSELF TO OBLIVION!!!!!!"

Pathetic.



Please quote where I said "sending myself to oblivion" is a way to end suffering?


Pathetic


Maybe if that was my point however all you have done it set up straw men and argued against them, not against anything I have said ...
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:11 pm

"I enjoy eating pizza, but sometimes my pizza gets cold. I think I am going to completely eradicate myself so I do not have to endure the relentless torture of eating cold pizza for one second longer!! OMG IT HURTS, I HATE COLD PIZZA! SOMEONE TEACH ME HOW TO SEND MYSELF TO OBLIVION!!!!!!"


Or buy a microwave ...


:jumping:


:alien:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Aloka » Wed Jan 15, 2014 4:21 pm

curiosity wrote:
Pathetic.


and name-calling like this is hardly enlightened behaviour.


.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:31 am

.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:40 am

You said it was not important whether or not nirvana implies a cease of consciousness/existence, and that you still suggest trying to achieve it either way; this means that, given that you acknowledge that nirvana may mean a cease of consciousness/existence and that ceasing ones consciousness/existence is essentially banishing oneself to oblivion, you would favor oblivion over having to deal with the trivial stresses and sufferings of life.



Wow :jawdrop:


Ok so firstly this

"You said it was not important whether or not nirvana implies a cease of consciousness/existence, and that you still suggest trying to achieve it either way; this means that, given that you acknowledge that nirvana may mean a cease of consciousness/existence and that ceasing ones consciousness/existence is essentially banishing oneself to oblivion, you would favor oblivion over having to deal with the trivial stresses and sufferings of life."

does not follow from this

"You said it was not important whether or not nirvana implies a cease of consciousness/existence, and that you still suggest trying to achieve it either way;"


Secondly what I actually said was

"Why not focus on the suffering in your life and how best to be free of it, instead of worrying about concepts like existence or non-existence?"


Which was my advice to not worry about the past or future too much, but to focus on the present moment and to be free from dukkha here and now (which can be done)

Hence this

" you would favor oblivion over having to deal with the trivial stresses and sufferings of life."

Is not something I have said

In fact I said the opposite, which was to deal with stresses as they arise in the here and now :)


As was quoted earlier


MN63: Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta wrote:

Then, when it was evening, Ven. Malunkyaputta arose from seclusion and went to the Blessed One. On arrival, having bowed down, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, just now, as I was alone in seclusion, this train of thought arose in my awareness: 'These positions that are undeclared, set aside, discarded by the Blessed One... I don't approve, I don't accept that the Blessed One has not declared them to me. I'll go ask the Blessed One about this matter. If he declares to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will live the holy life under him. If he does not declare to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist," then I will renounce the training and return to the lower life.'
... (snip) ...
"Malunkyaputta, if anyone were to say, 'I won't live the holy life under the Blessed One as long as he does not declare to me that "The cosmos is eternal,"... or that "After death a Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist,"' the man would die and those things would still remain undeclared by the Tathagata.

"It's just as if a man were wounded with an arrow thickly smeared with poison. His friends & companions, kinsmen & relatives would provide him with a surgeon, and the man would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the man who wounded me was a noble warrior, a brahman, a merchant, or a worker.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know the given name & clan name of the man who wounded me... until I know whether he was tall, medium, or short... until I know whether he was dark, ruddy-brown, or golden-colored... until I know his home village, town, or city... until I know whether the bow with which I was wounded was a long bow or a crossbow... until I know whether the bowstring with which I was wounded was fiber, bamboo threads, sinew, hemp, or bark... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was wild or cultivated... until I know whether the feathers of the shaft with which I was wounded were those of a vulture, a stork, a hawk, a peacock, or another bird... until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was bound with the sinew of an ox, a water buffalo, a langur, or a monkey.' He would say, 'I won't have this arrow removed until I know whether the shaft with which I was wounded was that of a common arrow, a curved arrow, a barbed, a calf-toothed, or an oleander arrow.' The man would die and those things would still remain unknown to him.




So once again, you have just set up and knocked down your own straw man arguments :?
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:46 am

In essence I was referring to the message here

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

...


"He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:53 am

Expressing my opinion on a train of thought is not akin to name-calling.



No but insinuating that I am a "a very weak, pitiful creature indeed." and so I am "pathetic", doesn't put you in the best light to be honest

Just saying :?
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 3:02 am

@kmath

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.



To be free from suffering

Why suffer when you don't have to
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:31 pm

.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:37 pm

.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:43 pm

Greeting Curiosity,

curiosity wrote:You're better served hearing honesty than silence, any offense you take is of your own accord.

Rather, you'd be better off learning what the Buddha taught about...

Right Speech
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/

Please stop being needlessly abrasive to others.

:focus:

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Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


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One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:44 pm

If you advocate achieving nirvana regardless of whether or not that means a cease of existence that means that:

- You advocate nirvana if it means that you still exist.

AND

- You advocate nirvana if it means that you will not exist.


Who is this "you"?

What I am saying is that we can be aware of the concepts of existence and non-existence, arising in the moment, via clinging to the aggregates (body, feelings etc). If we can be fully aware of that, then we no longer cling to the aggregates and concepts of "existence and non-existence" do not apply ;)



"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.




http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Therefore, if "You advocate nirvana if it means that you will not exist," which we just determined was the case, you advocate eradicating yourself in order to be free of menial stresses and sufferings.


Not at all, since that would just be aversion (and so craving/dukkha)

Instead we can just be aware of stress as it arises, learn from it and become more wise ... or buy a microwave if our pizza is cold :rofl:

There is no straw man argument, that is merely the logical extension of your worldview.


Its still a straw man argument sadly
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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