I'd rather be reborn

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:48 pm

You're better served hearing honesty than silence, any offense you take is of your own accord.


I have no problem with constructive criticism, however what you said was useless personal opinion about what you think I am like
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:54 pm

"A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior.


Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html


Note that the Buddha teaches a follower to

"Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others)."


And that Brahmanas

"do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:59 pm

Also in relation to views and opinions

I.3. THE BOND OF OPINIONS
“And how is there the bond of opinions? Here, monks, someone does not understand as it really is the arising, the subsiding, the sweetness, the wretchedness, and the leaving behind of opinions. For one not understanding as it really is the arising, the subsiding, the sweetness, the wretchedness, and the leaving behind of modes of opinion; who, with respect to opinion, is obsessed with passion for opinion, delight in opinion, affection for opinion, intoxication with opinion, thirst for opinion, fever for opinion, attachment to opinion, craving for opinion: this, monks, is called ‘the bond of opinion’. Thus the bond of sensual pleasure, the bond of being, and the bond of opinion.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html


Via


'If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of objectification assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder'

"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. (and so on with the other sense's and sense bases)



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:35 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:41 am

If one is offended by a statement of Buddha, does that mean that the Buddha has failed to abide by Right Speech?



Its not about offence

"The sort of doctrine, friend, where one does not keep quarreling with anyone in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & brahmans, its royalty & commonfolk; the sort [of doctrine] where perceptions no longer obsess the brahman who remains dissociated from sensuality, free from perplexity, his uncertainty cut away, devoid of craving for becoming & non-. Such is my doctrine, such is what I proclaim."

When this was said, Dandapani the Sakyan — shaking his head, wagging his tongue, raising his eyebrows so that his forehead was wrinkled in three furrows — left, leaning on his stick.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So Dandapani was offended by what the Buddha said, or at least was angered by it


Right speech is

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/


Anyway we have strayed OT

:focus: :focus:
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“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:42 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:44 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:44 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:47 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:47 am

How is the intention to achieve Nirvana not aversion?

You advocated doing something to release yourself from stress/suffering, how is that not aversion?


To begin with you want to be free of dukkha, so there is aversion there

However as we progress, we learn that aversion is dukkha also

Then we rest in awareness and "the way it is", neither going toward nor averting from experience


By choosing the path of attaining Nirvana, does this not indicate that you have the view/opinion that attaining Nirvana is better than not?


At first I did, however nibbana isnt a destination we reach, its just being as it is

If I thought it was better than not, then that would be craving still and I would miss it

The Simple Path

Traditionally the Eightfold Path is taught with eight steps such as Right Understanding, Right Speech, Right Concentration, and so forth. But the true Eightfold Path is within us-two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, a tongue, and a body. These eight doors are our entire Path and the mind is the one that walks on the Path. Know these doors, examine them, and all the dharmas will be revealed.

The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

Why not give it a try? Do you dare?



http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... erstanding the Buddhas Teachings
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Babadhari » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:50 am

the Buddhas words offended nobody
"Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... amma-vaca/


in terms of hearing harsh words they are thus advised
"Phagguna, if anyone were to reproach you right to your face, even then you should abandon those urges and thoughts which are worldly. There, Phagguna, you should train yourself thus: 'Neither shall my mind be affected by this, nor shall I give vent to evil words; but I shall remain full of concern and pity, with a mind of love, and I shall not give in to hatred.' This is how, Phagguna, you should train yourself
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .budd.html
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:namaste:
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:52 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:55 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:58 am

How did you gain the elevation to judge my statement as one that is untrue/unaffection/unbeneficial/ill-willed?


I dont know if it was without affection or from ill-will, however it was unbeneficial as it was without any constructive content

Calling me pathetic doesnt really give me advice on how to improve ;)

How do you contend that your judgment does not stem from an opinion/view that you hold?


Its not an opinion, as I dont know your intent and shall remain silent on that

However it wasnt beneficial and was not in line with what I said


How is this not an opinion/view?


Because you didnt give any advice, and just made a statement about what you think I am



Where do you draw the line between opinion and fact? Are you the one who draws that line?


The way it is would be a fact, opinion is through clinging



How can anything spoken by any being not attain the status of "opinion" by it's very nature?


That depends on how we define the words it seems
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:04 am

How can you give advice without clinging to your own viewpoint?


Because all I say is that views arise because of attachment

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)

When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."



http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


How is you claiming that my arguments are "straw men" not merely an extension of your opinion/view?


Because its a fact, your arguments did not address what I said


How do you deny the existence of "you" and then go on to use the term "I"?


Now now, when did I deny "me"?

Another straw man

Is it not about offense?

"One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others. That word is indeed well spoken.

"One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable (to others). What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant."


Does tormenting someone not count as offending someone?

Does offending someone not count as tormenting someone?

Does saying something unacceptable not count as offending someone?


Can you provide links when you reference suttas please

I am shocked that you cant see the difference between tormenting someone verbally and offending :jawdrop:
Last edited by clw_uk on Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:07 am

Is following a set of rules/precepts/teachings not aversion against not-following said things?


Nope :)


Why do you eat?


Because thats what the khandas do ... and I have hot pizza :rofl:

Do you feel aversion towards starvation? Oh it's because you're not supposed to kill yourself, is it then not aversion towards breaking that rule/precept/teaching?


Whats your answer to why Buddhism teaches not giving into pleasure and pain, yet Buddha still ate?

It seems as though the "rule" against aversion is not as hard-and-fast as you portray it.


So aversion is a part of Buddhism?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:10 am

The Buddha does not want us to follow the double path-desire and indulgence on the one hand and fear and aversion on the other. Just be aware of pleasure, he teaches. Anger, fear, dissatisfaction are not the path of the yogi but the path of-worldly people. The tranquil person walks the Middle Path of right practice, leaving grasping on the left and fear and aversion on the right.

One who undertakes the path of practice must follow this Middle Way: "1 will not take interest in pleasure or pain. I will lay them down." But, of course, it is hard at first. It is as though we are being kicked on both sides. Like a cowbell or a pendulum, we are knocked back and forth.

When Buddha preached his first sermon, he discoursed on these two extremes because this is where attachment lies. The desire for happiness kicks from one side; suffering and dissatisfaction kick from the other. These two are always besieging us. But when you walk the Middle Path, you put them both down.

Don't you see? If you follow these extremes, you will simply strike out when you are angry and grab for what attracts you, without the slightest patience or forbearance. How long can you, go on being trapped in this way? Consider it: if you like something, you follow after it when liking arises, yet it is just drawing you on to seek suffering. This mind of desire is really clever. Where will it lead you next?

The Buddha teaches us to keep laying down the extremes. This is the path of right practice, the path leading out of birth and becoming. On this path, there is neither pleasure nor pain, neither good nor evil. Alas, the mass of humans filled with desiring just strive for pleasure and always bypass the middle, missing the Path of the Excellent One, the path of the seeker of truth. Attached to birth and becoming, happiness and suffering, good and evil, the one who does not travel this Middle Path cannot become a wise one, cannot find liberation. Our Path is straight, the path of tranquility and pure awareness, calmed of both elation and sorrow. If your heart is like this, you can stop asking other people for guidance.

You will see that when the heart / mind is unattached, it is abiding in its normal state. When it stirs from 'the normal because of various thoughts and feelings, the process of thought construction takes place, in which illusions are created. Learn to see through this process. When the mind has stirred from normal, it leads away from right practice to one of the extremes of indulgence or aversion, thereby creating more illusion, more thought construction. Good or bad only arises in your mind. If-you keep a watch on your mind, studying this one topic your whole life, I guarantee that you will never be bored.



http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books2/Ajahn ... erstanding the Buddhas Teachings
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:12 am

Speech doesn't have to be abusive to be offensive, clearly.


Good job no one is feeling offended ;)
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby curiosity » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:20 am

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:21 am

A simple way to resolve a great swathe of this discussion would be if you declared what your intention was when you said I was "pathetic, weak" etc and how you feel it fits in with Right Speech?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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