I'd rather be reborn

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:05 pm

SarathW wrote:Hi Shaswata
Deep dreamless sleep is not Nibbana according to Buddha’s teaching.
According to Abhidhamma it is called Bhawanga Citta.

Buddha is not against happiness.
Nirvana is the highest happiness and you can reach their in stages. Each stage is more subtle and happier.


Please listen to the following video: four kind of happiness

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zAQU8MEHnM
:)



Of course deep dreamless sleep is not Nibbana but that you can say only when you are awake..I have through out the years read a huge amount of defintions for Nibbana and the experience of dreamless sleep while sleeping is the closest I can aliken Nibbana to...I am gonna see your video now..however four kinds of happiness are ..they can be felt in meditation and higher rebirth right? I am talking of Nibbana after the final death (Paranibbana) ..there is no existence but yet no non existence....go again through my definition dreamless sleep fulfills all the criteria of Nibbana..now Imagine if you never dreamt in your sleep and hypothetically it last forever from the waking standpoint of view...then explain to me how come dreamless sleep is different from Nibbana? You have broken down all the five skandhas, you have given up the view of self, you are free from all views-------------one has to come up with very very good explanation to convince me otherwise..and within sleep you never "think" that you are annihilated...dreamless sleep is not annihilationism and it is also not eternalism


I waiting for good response to shootdown my view....because I loathe to think that tsomething akin to Nibbana was there right under our nose and we missed it


Deep Dreamless sleep fulfills all the criteria set by Nibbana--ALL of course if you discount the fact that next day you eventually get up.....
Shaswata_Panja
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Ben » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:18 pm

SarathW wrote:Deep dreamless sleep is not Nibbana according to Buddha’s teaching.



Sadhu!
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR
Buddhist Life Stories of Australia

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com
User avatar
Ben
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16309
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: Land of the sleeping gods

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Aloka » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:22 pm

Shaswata_Panja wrote:You go into Nibbana every night and you donot get afraid then--in fact you enjoy it the most--then why will you be afraid when the real deal comes?

Deep dream less sleep is like Nibbana


No, Nibanna isn't like going to sleep or being in a coma. In my opinion its a peaceful and aware mind which is free of attachment and delusion.

This article "Nirvana Now" by Ajahn Sumedho might help....

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/nirvana-now.html


:anjali:
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3770
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Monkey Mind » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:47 pm

Because no one else has mentioned it... There is an assumption that samsara and dukkha will be similar the next time around as it was in this life's version. Even if you exclude the possibilities of rebirth into hell realms or animal realms, I think near future human generations are going to have a difficult go of things here on Earth. Environmental catastrophes of ever-increasing proportions, viruses that continue to get nastier and more difficult to beat, current governments will collapse as new ones rise up. The old argument, "Better the devil you know than the one you don't" assumes that the circumstances you know will remain the same over time. But we know nothing remains unchanged...
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
User avatar
Monkey Mind
 
Posts: 538
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:56 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby appicchato » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:02 am

...wake up.


That's exactly what the Buddha advised doing...
User avatar
appicchato
 
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:51 am

Aloka wrote:
Shaswata_Panja wrote:You go into Nibbana every night and you donot get afraid then--in fact you enjoy it the most--then why will you be afraid when the real deal comes?

Deep dream less sleep is like Nibbana


No, Nibanna isn't like going to sleep or being in a coma. In my opinion its a peaceful and aware mind which is free of attachment and delusion.

This article "Nirvana Now" by Ajahn Sumedho might help....

http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-archive/2010/6/1/nirvana-now.html

:anjali:





So Buddha is a peaceful and aware mind feee of attachment and delusion now? If I meditate on the Buddha for the next 60 years of my life, is there ven the fainitest chance of making contact with Him? Thervada says no as afar as I know ---Buddha has "crossed over"..He is not accessible to the normal minds in all the realms

Is there awareness in the final Paranibbana? (I am not talking the years of the last life spent in the Nibbana state)

If so who is experiencing this "awareness"? There is no self......and all the five skandhas that produced the "apparent" self are destroyed...So who exactly is aware of paranibbana?


The article is so so way off in the perspective of traditional Theravada Buddhism as taught by most diligent western Monks where to start?

Nirvana, says Ajahn Sumedho, is not some far off goal that can only be attained through years of effort. It is a state of being you can realize at any moment once you let go of grasping.



Whom are we kidding? Wow so why did Buddha leave home? Why did he meditate on and on? Why did he enforce strict celibacy for anybody who wanted to be in the Sangha? Why one needed his karma over millions of birth to ripen at the conducive moment to reach Nibbana? As much as this article has been dumbed down for Western Consensus Buddhists, the notion has always been there in all almost all Indian spiritual traditions that if you want to achieve the ultimate attainment of the said religious path, you need to have a hero like bravery..(Virya)

Another difficulty is that many Buddhists see nibbana (Sanskrit: nirvana) as something unobtainable—as so high and so remote that we’re not worthy enough to try for it.


no its not unobtainable, but to attain it you have to forsake everything else---everything--money,cars, above all sex, good and sumptous food all the time, attachment to comfort as well as security...you can find yourself on the streets one day at the level of a beggar (which is what actually the word bhikkhu,bhikshuk,bhikshu mean) ...may be you have to run off to the foothills of the Himalayas and subsist on fruits ...but you donot despair over that, in fact you are either detached towards or rejoice at adversity and go forward in your meditation practices or dhutanga practices.....There has been dhutanga practitioner arahants or forest arahants like Ajahn Chah,Ajhan Bua,Ajahn Mun,Mahashi Sayadaw and Buddhadasa Bhikkhu..has there really ever been a householder frequent sexing arahant since the time of the Buddha?

So nibbana is looked at as something that if you work hard, keep the sila (moral precepts), meditate diligently, become a monastic, devote your life to practice, then your reward might be that eventually you attain nibbana—even though you’re not sure what it is.




So moral precepts are not required?? Meditation is not required? You enter Nibbana by sexing,drugging,killing,lying all the way while listening to heavy rock music? You can be a wordly CEO of Playboy Magazine and have the Huge Heffner life and still enter Nibbana? you donot need to be a partially withdrawn from society, heavily self-restraing monk?

Wow I must have been reading the wrong Tipitaka then!!!

In meditation classes, people often start with a basic delusion that they never challenge: the idea that “I’m someone who grasps and has a lot of desires, and I have to practice in order to get rid of these desires and stop grasping and clinging to things. I shouldn’t cling to anything.” That’s often the position we start from. So we start our practice from this basis and, many times, the result is disillusionment and disappointment, because our practice is based on the grasping of an idea.

Eventually, we realize that no matter how much we try to get rid of desire and not grasp anything, no matter what we do—become a monk, an ascetic, sit for hours and hours, attend retreats over and over again, do all the things we believe will get rid of these grasping tendencies—we end up feeling disappointed because the basic delusion has never been recognized.



Isn't meditation the killer app of Buddhism?? Don't you go into meditation specifically to realize that you have no self eventhough you might have believed in an eternal/non-eternal self even just two minutes before the meditation practice?
So the problem of self/non-self that could not have been rectified by years and decades of meditation can be by just an "attitude" change?? We just have to chant there is no permanent non-changing self 20 times before each meditation session?

Awareness is not about making value judgments about our thoughts or emotions or actions or speech. Awareness is about knowing these things fully—that they are what they are, at this moment


knowing can only be done by the knower....and as long as there is the knower , there is the self and hence no Nibbana
Shaswata_Panja
 
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 5:49 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:26 am

Hi Shaswata_Panja,
Shaswata_Panja wrote:
Nirvana, says Ajahn Sumedho, is not some far off goal that can only be attained through years of effort. It is a state of being you can realize at any moment once you let go of grasping.


It may be worth pointing out that this is the summary put in by the Magazine. I'm not sure that Ajahn Sumedho is saying that it is easy to let go of grasping. Quite the opposite, in fact:
Sumedho wrote:Eventually, we realize that no matter how much we try to get rid of desire and not grasp anything, no matter what we do—become a monk, an ascetic, sit for hours and hours, attend retreats over and over again, do all the things we believe will get rid of these grasping tendencies—we end up feeling disappointed because the basic delusion has never been recognized.

I think you may be over-interpreting Ajahn Sumedho's statements. He's not writing a technical treatise, or a detailed practice manual. He's giving encouragement based on his understanding of typical problems that we face as practitioners.

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
 
Posts: 10663
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby manas » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:54 am

Shaswata_Panja wrote:...


Hi Shaswata,

I can relate to wanting to know many things. But the Buddha doesn't teach whether he exists or not, or whether we will exist or not, after final parinibbana. He teaches 'stress and the cessation of stress'. I know that can be frustrating initially, but over time I have begun to understand why he did so. Our time here is limited. It is hard enough already just to realize the cessation of stress, which is our most urgent and pressing problem. But if we ponder things that cannot even be given an answer, we will just waste precious time, and might lose our precious human birth before having seen the Dhamma.

There is dukkha for us right now, and as you know, it can get much worse, too. This is where we need to put our effort, into treading the Path that leads to the cessation of dukkha. Of course no one is forcing us; the offer is there, but we can either take it or leave it...

metta
:anjali:
User avatar
manas
 
Posts: 2192
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:06 am

I think my issue is this: if Nibbana is not a dreamless sleep, I'm just not sure what it is.

When the arahant dies, what does he or she experience? Is it something or is it nothing? If it's nothing, then we are in the dreamless sleep scenario. If it's something, then what is it?

I completely understand that this question has been asked and answered, but I've just never heard it answered well.

The Buddha says you can't think of Nibbana as existence or as non-existence. But then -- is it some third state? Like, existence but not in the way we typically think of it? Maybe existence without grasping? But I mean, I don't think there's another rebirth, is there? Maybe you're some kind of omnipresence? That's what some people seem to think. But I don't see any basis for that in the suttas.

This thing about not existence and not non-existence is absurd. For you logicians out there, it's like we're being asked to believe in the negation of a tautology.

Can someone please set me straight?

*** One more thing: some people suggest basically "don't think about it -- just keep practicing." But that's not good advice. If I don't want to go to Iowa, I'm not going to get on the highway and start driving there.
User avatar
kmath
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:44 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:32 am

Hi Kmath
Only way you can understand this (Nirvana) by understanding Anatta.

:meditate:
SarathW
 
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:37 am

In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:42 am

robertk wrote:In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.


If that's not non-existence, I don't know what is.
User avatar
kmath
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:44 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:08 am

robertk wrote:In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.
Wrong.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:41 am

Dan74 wrote:This is a tough one, but I'd venture to say that we were never born to start with. It's ignorance and delusion that was born and this is what will cease.



:anjali:
Sanjay PS
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Aloka » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:54 am

You enter Nibbana by sexing,drugging,killing,lying all the way while listening to heavy rock music? You can be a wordly CEO of Playboy Magazine and have the Huge Heffner life and still enter Nibbana?


Huh ? I think there are some wild assumptions and a separate story-line there that's unrelated to what Ajahn Sumedho meant.


:anjali:
User avatar
Aloka
 
Posts: 3770
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:34 am

A good way of gauging the truth is the strength of our clinging to an i , me and mine . So long as this feeling persists , we have our fair size of work cut out :smile: , and should skillfully avoid being distracted by the internal and external doubts which will very naturally keep arising , trying to sway us from time to time .The realization that all things are just a conditioned changeable process , inevitably will become crystal clear , should we diligently walk on the Noble Eight Fold Path, striving on in becoming a pure hearted person.

Of course, " smart people " will continue to harp there is this self that gets to realize the crystal clarity , hence , the self does exist , adding on that there is a beginning and end to everything , thus trying a desperate attempt to prove the superiority of a religion or intellect .

Buddhas always go beyond the intellect and in guiding us with great compassion in showing the way out of all kinds of superiority and inferiority complex. We have only ourselves to question, should we not drink up the medicine , but go at great lengths to argue about the doctor and the efficacy of the medication.

sanjay
Sanjay PS
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:13 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.

Wrong.


So what's your view, Tilt?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
User avatar
Spiny Norman
 
Posts: 2928
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby cooran » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:40 am

Hello all,

My understanding is that "the state of Nibbana after the death of the Arahant is nowhere discussed in the Paali Canon."
Scroll down to The Avyaakatas
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el407.html

with metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7761
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby SarathW » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:42 am

Sanjay PS
:goodpost:
SarathW
 
Posts: 2562
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:48 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.

Wrong.


So what's your view, Tilt?
It is a very imprecise use of language, which led kmath to state: "If that's not non-existence, I don't know what is." The arahant/tathagata is when alive or dead not measured in those -- or in any --terms.

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is asankhata, free from the conditioned." SN IV 359 and SN IV 362

That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321

The destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion is arahantship. SN IV 252.

"Whoever frees himself from the passions of greed, hatred, and ignorance, they call him, one who is self developed, made divine, thus-gone (tathagata), awake (buddha), one who has left fear and hatred, and one who has let go of all." Itivuttaka 57

Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118-9

There is the case where a monk's conceit 'I am' is abandoned, its root destroyed, like an uprooted palm tree, deprived of the conditions of existence, not destined for future arising. This is how a monk is a noble one with banner lowered, burden placed down, unfettered.

"And when the devas, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, search for the monk whose mind is thus released, they cannot find that 'The consciousness of the one truly gone
(tathagata) 11/226 is dependent on this.' Why is that? The one truly gone (tathagata) is untraceable even in the here & now. – MN I 139

Ven Thanissaro’s fn: 11. The term "tathagata" is often, but not always, reserved for the Buddha. Sometimes, as in the case here, it is used to refer to the arahant.

Bhikkhu Bodhi’s fn 226, p 1210: “Thus Gone” is, in Pali, Tathagata, the usual epithet of the Buddha, but here applied more broadly to the arahant [following the commentary].”

Dhp 179-180: Whose conquest can't be undone,
whose conquest no one in the world
can reach;
awakened
[buddha], his pasture endless,
pathless:
by what path will you lead him astray?
In whom there's no craving
— the sticky ensnarer —
to lead him anywherever at all;
awakened
[buddha], his pasture endless,
pathless:
by what path will you lead him astray?


Dhp 254-5: There's no trail in space,
no outside contemplative.
People are smitten
with complications,
but devoid of complication are
the Tathagatas.
There's no trail in space,
no outside contemplative,
no eternal fabrications,
no wavering in the Awakened
[buddha].


The point is that one cannot meaningfully state: "After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that," for the simple reason that it has the smell of being/non-being about it. But the problem is, of course, until we attain ariya status we are going to be stuck thinking in those terms, and we cannot think our way out of it, even if we have "Right View."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: denise and 9 guests