I'd rather be reborn

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:The point is that one cannot meaningfully state: "After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that," for the simple reason that it has the smell of being/non-being about it. But the problem is, of course, until we attain ariya status we are going to be stuck thinking in those terms, and we cannot think our way out of it, even if we have "Right View."


So it's a state which transcends the dichotomy of existence / non-existence?
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:13 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The point is that one cannot meaningfully state: "After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that," for the simple reason that it has the smell of being/non-being about it. But the problem is, of course, until we attain ariya status we are going to be stuck thinking in those terms, and we cannot think our way out of it, even if we have "Right View."


So it's a state which transcends the dichotomy of existence / non-existence?
It is freedom from thinking in those terms or any variation of them.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:14 am

kmath wrote:I think my issue is this: if Nibbana is not a dreamless sleep, I'm just not sure what it is.

When the arahant dies, what does he or she experience? Is it something or is it nothing? If it's nothing, then we are in the dreamless sleep scenario. If it's something, then what is it?

I completely understand that this question has been asked and answered, but I've just never heard it answered well.

The Buddha says you can't think of Nibbana as existence or as non-existence. But then -- is it some third state? Like, existence but not in the way we typically think of it? Maybe existence without grasping? But I mean, I don't think there's another rebirth, is there? Maybe you're some kind of omnipresence? That's what some people seem to think. But I don't see any basis for that in the suttas.

This thing about not existence and not non-existence is absurd. For you logicians out there, it's like we're being asked to believe in the negation of a tautology.

Can someone please set me straight?

*** One more thing: some people suggest basically "don't think about it -- just keep practicing." But that's not good advice. If I don't want to go to Iowa, I'm not going to get on the highway and start driving there.


This has exactly been my contention...there is no greater bliss than deep dreamless slep eventhough you donot really "experience" that bliss as you do in the walking state...there is no heart racing,head buzzing bliss in deep dreamless sleep..and when you are in deep dreamless sleep, there is neither existence nor non existence and NONE of the khandas exist.....It is natural that budding Buddhists want to have an inkling about what it is "like"---and deep dreamless sleep is the biggest metaphor that we are ever going to have....you know a Muslim girlfriend of mine once noted to me, Buddhism tries to answer the problem by blotting out the question....and all straight cut answers regarding Nibbana is like chopping off the head to cure the headache........why there is so much reluctance even to give an inkling of a definition of Nibbana regarding what it "feels" like? for years and years I went through many definitions and this is the only conclusion I can come to--Deep Dreamless Sleep



SarathW wrote:Hi Kmath
Only way you can understand this (Nirvana) by understanding Anatta.

:meditate:


But according to Ajahan Sumedho in the article you cannot "get" Anatta even after decades of meditation , and that too even as an ascetic..why? because you started the meditation practice with the thought that:"I have to stop clinging"......So he recommends an "attitude" change in the non-meditative normal state----So what meditation could not cure a certain "attitude" change can!! which is basically forcing your mind to believe something by repeating it over and over again....It seems we are locked in a vicious cycle

robertk wrote:In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.


really in the "duration" of dreamless sleep khandas are arising and passing away? Nope it doesnot Just take the duration of dreamless sleep without the arising of dreams and without being distracted by external disturbances...of course dreamless sleep IS NOT Nibbana...BUT it s pretty Darn close!!!

Sanjay PS wrote:A good way of gauging the truth is the strength of our clinging to an i , me and mine . So long as this feeling persists , we have our fair size of work cut out :smile: , and should skillfully avoid being distracted by the internal and external doubts which will very naturally keep arising , trying to sway us from time to time .The realization that all things are just a conditioned changeable process , inevitably will become crystal clear , should we diligently walk on the Noble Eight Fold Path, striving on in becoming a pure hearted person.

Of course, " smart people " will continue to harp there is this self that gets to realize the crystal clarity , hence , the self does exist , adding on that there is a beginning and end to everything , thus trying a desperate attempt to prove the superiority of a religion or intellect .

Buddhas always go beyond the intellect and in guiding us with great compassion in showing the way out of all kinds of superiority and inferiority complex. We have only ourselves to question, should we not drink up the medicine , but go at great lengths to argue about the doctor and the efficacy of the medication.

sanjay



as I have said earlier in the post , Ajahn Sumedho is saying if decades of meditation and even ascetic practices cannot solve your clinging to "I" then an "attitude" change can---which in my mind is forcing oneself to believe in Anatta ......and regarding all these core teachings of Buddhism which seem to be difficult to grasp , do ordinary Sri Lankans, Burmese , Thai really fret over this? Try explaining an Indian Housewife the concept of Anatta.....I bet 99 cents that it will come a cropper...she might give a dazed look at you then dismiss it and carry on with her life...Have you ever seen the doctrinal soundness of lay Ambedkarite Buddhists?? that is the state of modern Buddhism today! Most Buddhists are mainly concerned with merit making...It seems Buddhism as practiced in the West is mainly the interest of atomized men and some divorced/widowed atomized women.....which is not a bad thing....most Budhist practitioners or meditation practitioners of any sort (the serious ones) have meagre to very little social life...I know I am because of a lot of deaths in the family and being in a foreign country there is little to no bonding with people----which is all okay ..Why is it all okay? Because the main point of Vipassana meditation was always to aid you greatly and critically in Renunciation! Now the million dollar question----Is it okay to keep on practicing a meditation technique whose aim is to help you in renunciation when you have no goal similiar to that? How many are ready to give up music, movies, internet or even sex in a Western Buddhist context even though they might be into Vipassana??

Isn't this the reason that the lay people in Theravada Buddhist countries eschew meditation in favour of merit making? Meditation is solely there to help you in renunciation and lay people are not that much interested in it because they still want to pursue cars, jobs,houses, marriage, sex,children,grandchildren
The only lay people in India and SL who seriously pursue the cultivation of a spiritual life are over 65 middle class people who have accomplished all the things they wanted job, house, family, children and even grandchildren

Lay people want to know what is in the immediate after life and want to have some assurance!! they donot either have the time or motivation to pursue serious Dhamma...and this is where Buddhism has been seriously lacking in the onslaught of Globalization....Christian missioanries armed with billion of dollars are selling such a simple message of hope (not necessarily true) that SL people are falling wholesale over it..I interact heavily with both the Sinhalese and the Tamil community in Germany and you wouldnot imagine how many have become converted Christians!!
They give people with families the hope that all of them are going to spend eternity together in Heaven!! if this is not the most seductive message for a loving contented father or mother then I donot know what is!! You know how evangelists seduce people to Christianity in South Asia and especially vulnerable people who may be have lost a child? They say okay I accept according to your religious system your child might verily be in heaven now! and that you might also go to heaven after death! But what guarantee is there that you will meet him there? He might well have checked out of heaven into the next rebirth and LOST TO YOU FOR ALL ETERNITY!! There is no guarantee that you will ever find your child in the form you knew him ever again!! the next time you might not recognize him because of a different rebirth!!---------------Do you want to be happy with your child for all eternity the way you used to be when you took him out for his sunday cricket camp?? Now if thats not a very powerful message and very sinister way of convincing people then what is?? See the Christians are providing HOPE...eventhough it might be False Hope....and the rate of evangelization in SL there might not be a Buddhist SL to draw inspiration from and to send western monks to in 50-60 years time....

We all know the Dhamma is intellectually and scientifically much much superior to Christianity but is it Emotionally superior the way it is being presented today?
Can the Dhamma bring people to tears today the way it brought the lay people to tears when Buddha spoke to them? Is this emotional vigour of Christianity that led Paul Williams , the Buddhist scholar, to revert back to Catholicism eventhough he singlehandedly built Buddhism in a Major Western City for over 20 years?

See where I am getting at? The woeful lack of teachers who not only teach meditation but also the metaphysics and cosmology of Dhamma so that lay people are not led astray by predatory evangelists?? Ven. S. Dhammika has written extensively over it...He contented that Buddhist monks being so self-absorbed in their own attainment and practice and no proactive contact with the community is what led to the extinction of Buddhism in India as it gradually merged and got subsumed into Hinduism..On the contrary Jain monkhood's main focus was always to teach the lay people and extensive development of guide books and texts for lay practice....that's why Jains survived as a DISTINCT community in India inspite of being much much smaller and much older than Buddhism


So why there is so much reluctance on part of Buddhist teachers on giving an inkling of simile of how Nibbana is like to "feel"? I gave the simile of deep dreamless sleep which in the absence of better similes is an adequate answer

and should skillfully avoid being distracted by the internal and external doubts which will very naturally keep arising , trying to sway us from time to time .



Again this sounds suspiciously like what a Pastor would say to a teenager when he is having doubts about God and Jesus...The answer would be "avoid being distracted by external and internal doubts" and keep on Praying and you will eventually come to know the truth


Again Deep Dreamless Sleep is freedom from ALL Views..isn't it called ditthi/drishti mukti in Buddhism?
Last edited by Shaswata_Panja on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:29 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:26 am

Shaswata_Panja wrote:--Deep Dreamless Sleep
That might be good Hinduism, but the Buddha is one who is awake (buddha), and the goal is full awakening, sambodhi. No deep dreamless sleep here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:32 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Shaswata_Panja wrote:--Deep Dreamless Sleep
That might be good Hinduism, but the Buddha is one who is awake (buddha), and the goal is full awakening, sambodhi. No deep dreamless sleep here.


So Buddha is awake now as we speak? and what criteria of Nibbana does deep dreamless sleep not satisfy? (apart from the obvious waking up and dreaming part)

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:42 am

Shaswata_Panja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Shaswata_Panja wrote:--Deep Dreamless Sleep
That might be good Hinduism, but the Buddha is one who is awake (buddha), and the goal is full awakening, sambodhi. No deep dreamless sleep here.


So Buddha is awake now as we speak? and what criteria of Nibbana does deep dreamless sleep not satisfy? (apart from the obvious waking up and dreaming part)
First of all, you have not shown, using the Buddha's words, that your Hindu version of nibbana is appropriate, though you have given us your opinion at length, but it is looks to be an opinion without any grounding in the Buddha's teachings or practice. And as for your first question, the texts clearly address that. The problem you are presently manifesting is that you are still stuck in looking at this in terms of being/non-being or some variation thereof.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:48 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:In dreamless sleep the khandas are still arising and passing away.
After the death of the arhats the khandhas no more arise. All that remains is the bone relics, if that.

Wrong.


So what's your view, Tilt?

The "Dispeller of Delusion" (Pali text society, Commentary to the Book of Analysis, Chapter 4, Classification of the Truths, 101) explains the three kinds of deaths: momentary death( Khanika marana), conventional death and death as cutting-off:

... Herein, momentary death is the breaking-up of the rupas and namas [i.e the khandhas] during the course (of an existence).

"Tissa is dead", "Phussa is dead"; this is called "conventional death".

The completing of his time (kalakiriya) without liability to rebirth-linking by one who has destroyed the cankers is called "death by cutting-off"....

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Shaswata_Panja » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:49 am

Okay I have to accept that I am wrong then, but I still I would like somebody to come up with a comprehensive definition of Nibbana that truthfully interprets the from all the concerned and related suttas eventhough many of them might be in a bit of stilted language

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:02 am

Shaswata_Panja wrote:Okay I have to accept that I am wrong then, but I still I would like somebody to come up with a comprehensive definition of Nibbana that truthfully interprets the from all the concerned and related suttas eventhough many of them might be in a bit of stilted language



To my mind , defining Nibbana , would be untruthful , since it is beyond the six senses that we function with . All we need is to keep on working , on the pillars of morality , a right concentration , giving rise to panna , in turn strengthening morality , and the inter-dependence gains strength and momentum that much more . Sila , helps Samadhi , Samadhi helps Panna , Panna , helps Sila.........

sanjay
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The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Mkoll » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:13 am

a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

If you're lost in views or doubts, you may not have enough information. So read the suttas. Ponder their meaning. Meditate. The Buddha is quite clear that the Dhamma is to be experienced by the wise.
Peace,
James

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby SDC » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:40 pm

kmath wrote:I think my issue is this: if Nibbana is not a dreamless sleep, I'm just not sure what it is.

When the arahant dies, what does he or she experience? Is it something or is it nothing? If it's nothing, then we are in the dreamless sleep scenario. If it's something, then what is it?

I completely understand that this question has been asked and answered, but I've just never heard it answered well.

The Buddha says you can't think of Nibbana as existence or as non-existence. But then -- is it some third state? Like, existence but not in the way we typically think of it? Maybe existence without grasping? But I mean, I don't think there's another rebirth, is there? Maybe you're some kind of omnipresence? That's what some people seem to think. But I don't see any basis for that in the suttas.

This thing about not existence and not non-existence is absurd. For you logicians out there, it's like we're being asked to believe in the negation of a tautology.

Can someone please set me straight?


Let’s take freeze frame of experience, the entire experience. There is a world, a computer and you are looking at it. Too simple I’m sure, but it will suit this example. So this experience includes everything from the depths of the universe to the most subtle thoughts. Am I correct? There is a world you have accepted to be out there and you are doing something in it. So when the word experience is used, it means the whole thing. To be clear, this is not an experience “you” are having. There is this whole thing happening (experience) and from it a world and a self are defined and can be clearly differentiated between. What has happened with this experience is that we have accepted that the self precedes thought and therefore self precedes the world. Instead of seeing that the world and self are both equally delusional conclusions that have been extracted from this experience, there is the assumption that the self is the foundation. The Buddha teaches how to calm down and see this misunderstanding. And when there is awakening the idea that experience contains a self and world goes away. Experience is still there, but is no longer understood the same way.

So what is experiencing? If you still feel the need to ask that question it is because you are still allowing self to precede experience. Allow the possibility that experience precedes both self and world. Focus on experience. Still want to know what is experiencing when I say experience? There is only the experience and experience experiences experience. It is only experience, experienced in many ways. That is what is happening. Self and world come after. Neither are the foundation.

kmath wrote:*** One more thing: some people suggest basically "don't think about it -- just keep practicing." But that's not good advice. If I don't want to go to Iowa, I'm not going to get on the highway and start driving there.


Agreed it is not good advice. However you just want to make sure you do not get hung up on certain concepts. Good rule of thumb: if you get an explanation that is even remotely satisfying it is then best to put it aside an visit it periodically.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:52 pm

SDC wrote:
kmath wrote:I think my issue is this: if Nibbana is not a dreamless sleep, I'm just not sure what it is.

When the arahant dies, what does he or she experience? Is it something or is it nothing? If it's nothing, then we are in the dreamless sleep scenario. If it's something, then what is it?

I completely understand that this question has been asked and answered, but I've just never heard it answered well.

The Buddha says you can't think of Nibbana as existence or as non-existence. But then -- is it some third state? Like, existence but not in the way we typically think of it? Maybe existence without grasping? But I mean, I don't think there's another rebirth, is there? Maybe you're some kind of omnipresence? That's what some people seem to think. But I don't see any basis for that in the suttas.

This thing about not existence and not non-existence is absurd. For you logicians out there, it's like we're being asked to believe in the negation of a tautology.

Can someone please set me straight?


Let’s take freeze frame of experience, the entire experience. There is a world, a computer and you are looking at it. Too simple I’m sure, but it will suit this example. So this experience includes everything from the depths of the universe to the most subtle thoughts. Am I correct? There is a world you have accepted to be out there and you are doing something in it. So when the word experience is used, it means the whole thing. To be clear, this is not an experience “you” are having. There is this whole thing happening (experience) and from it a world and a self are defined and can be clearly differentiated between. What has happened with this experience is that we have accepted that the self precedes thought and therefore self precedes the world. Instead of seeing that the world and self are both equally delusional conclusions that have been extracted from this experience, there is the assumption that the self is the foundation. The Buddha teaches how to calm down and see this misunderstanding. And when there is awakening the idea that experience contains a self and world goes away. Experience is still there, but is no longer understood the same way.

So what is experiencing? If you still feel the need to ask that question it is because you are still allowing self to precede experience. Allow the possibility that experience precedes both self and world. Focus on experience. Still want to know what is experiencing when I say experience? There is only the experience and experience experiences experience. It is only experience, experienced in many ways. That is what is happening. Self and world come after. Neither are the foundation.

kmath wrote:*** One more thing: some people suggest basically "don't think about it -- just keep practicing." But that's not good advice. If I don't want to go to Iowa, I'm not going to get on the highway and start driving there.


Agreed it is not good advice. However you just want to make sure you do not get hung up on certain concepts. Good rule of thumb: if you get an explanation that is even remotely satisfying it is then best to put it aside an visit it periodically.



Thats wonderfully put across .

thanks ,

sanjay
The Path of Dhamma

The path of Dhamma is no picnic . It is a strenuous march steeply up the hill . If all the comrades desert you , Walk alone ! Walk alone ! with all the Thrill !!

U S.N. Goenka

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:20 pm

robertk wrote: The completing of his time (kalakiriya) without liability to rebirth-linking by one who has destroyed the cankers is called "death by cutting-off"....


Interesting, Robert. So does "death by cutting-off" here mean that the cankers have been cut off? And does this say anything about post pari-Nibbana?
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:47 pm

SDC wrote:
kmath wrote:I think my issue is this: if Nibbana is not a dreamless sleep, I'm just not sure what it is.

When the arahant dies, what does he or she experience? Is it something or is it nothing? If it's nothing, then we are in the dreamless sleep scenario. If it's something, then what is it?

I completely understand that this question has been asked and answered, but I've just never heard it answered well.

The Buddha says you can't think of Nibbana as existence or as non-existence. But then -- is it some third state? Like, existence but not in the way we typically think of it? Maybe existence without grasping? But I mean, I don't think there's another rebirth, is there? Maybe you're some kind of omnipresence? That's what some people seem to think. But I don't see any basis for that in the suttas.

This thing about not existence and not non-existence is absurd. For you logicians out there, it's like we're being asked to believe in the negation of a tautology.

Can someone please set me straight?


Let’s take freeze frame of experience, the entire experience. There is a world, a computer and you are looking at it. Too simple I’m sure, but it will suit this example. So this experience includes everything from the depths of the universe to the most subtle thoughts. Am I correct? There is a world you have accepted to be out there and you are doing something in it. So when the word experience is used, it means the whole thing. To be clear, this is not an experience “you” are having. There is this whole thing happening (experience) and from it a world and a self are defined and can be clearly differentiated between. What has happened with this experience is that we have accepted that the self precedes thought and therefore self precedes the world. Instead of seeing that the world and self are both equally delusional conclusions that have been extracted from this experience, there is the assumption that the self is the foundation. The Buddha teaches how to calm down and see this misunderstanding. And when there is awakening the idea that experience contains a self and world goes away. Experience is still there, but is no longer understood the same way.

So what is experiencing? If you still feel the need to ask that question it is because you are still allowing self to precede experience. Allow the possibility that experience precedes both self and world. Focus on experience. Still want to know what is experiencing when I say experience? There is only the experience and experience experiences experience. It is only experience, experienced in many ways. That is what is happening. Self and world come after. Neither are the foundation.


But hold on. I didn't ask who does the experiencing. I asked if there is experience for the arahant after his or her death. Ok fine maybe it's not his or her experience. It's just experience. So... what some kind of omnipresence then?

Sure you can say that for a given individual, there is just experience without self. That self is a delusion. I think most of us have seen that in meditation. But there is still this experience from this vantage point. You don't have to call it mine. But for me, there is no experience of your body and your mind. My world is from this point.

If there is experience after the death of the arahant, from which point is it? All points? No points? Some point?

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:49 pm

Mkoll wrote:
a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

If you're lost in views or doubts, you may not have enough information. So read the suttas. Ponder their meaning. Meditate. The Buddha is quite clear that the Dhamma is to be experienced by the wise.


I'm not asking that complicated of a question! Someone should be able to answer this.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby chownah » Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:00 pm

kmath,
No one here knows what happens after death.
chownah

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Justsit » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:14 pm

kmath wrote:I'm starting to think I'd rather be born again.


Really?? Think again.
You could be reborn here Or worse.
In an endless cycle.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Mkoll » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:27 pm

kmath wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. It is accompanied by suffering, distress, despair, & fever, and it does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation; to calm, direct knowledge, full Awakening, Unbinding.

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

If you're lost in views or doubts, you may not have enough information. So read the suttas. Ponder their meaning. Meditate. The Buddha is quite clear that the Dhamma is to be experienced by the wise.


I'm not asking that complicated of a question! Someone should be able to answer this.


184. Enduring patience is the highest austerity. "Nibbana is supreme," say the Buddhas. He is not a true monk who harms another, nor a true renunciate who oppresses others.

- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#dhp-184

There are no quick answers in Dhamma, only insight won through experience. In the suttas, those who become enlightened via tremendous insight after hearing a single discourse are already extremely spiritually mature, having cultivated the perfections over many lives. Don't think you're one of them. Answer your own questions yourself with practice and time. Read the suttas. Meditate. And if you get an answer, don't cling to it or you'll just create more views. View after view after view after view...clinging never ends until its conditions end and its conditions only end through practice (action).

At a certain point with any subject, thinking and pondering just creates more views. It's like doing math problems. You can think for an eternity about integrals or derivatives in calculus with all the theoretical knowledge in the world. But until you actually sit your butt down, pick up a pencil, and work out the problems yourself, you will only be able to think so far. Then, once you've gained some insights through practicing problems, all that theoretical knowledge will have a different, clearer light shed on it. Dhamma is no different. You read the suttas and ponder them (theoretical knowledge) then you meditate (practice) and insights come, skills develop. Then the suttas become clearer and you can think and ponder some more because there's more "space" to do so.

The Dhamma is limitless.

Good luck in your practice.
Peace,
James

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robertk
Posts: 1349
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby robertk » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:36 pm

dear spiny
Yes, that is right. Somtimes parinibbana is divided into two: kilesa
parinibbana (cessation of kilesa)and khanda parinibbana (cessation of
the khandas) . So khandha parinibbama is the death of the arahat, no more rebirth. no dukkha

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Aloka
Posts: 3829
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Aloka » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:36 pm

Justsit wrote:

Really?? Think again.
You could be reborn here Or worse.
In an endless cycle.


or even here...

Image


:)


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