I'd rather be reborn

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:33 pm

Mkoll wrote:
There are no quick answers in Dhamma, only insight won through experience. In the suttas, those who become enlightened via tremendous insight after hearing a single discourse are already extremely spiritually mature, having cultivated the perfections over many lives. Don't think you're one of them. Answer your own questions yourself with practice and time. Read the suttas. Meditate. And if you get an answer, don't cling to it or you'll just create more views. View after view after view after view...clinging never ends until its conditions end and its conditions only end through practice (action).

At a certain point with any subject, thinking and pondering just creates more views. It's like doing math problems. You can think for an eternity about integrals or derivatives in calculus with all the theoretical knowledge in the world. But until you actually sit your butt down, pick up a pencil, and work out the problems yourself, you will only be able to think so far. Then, once you've gained some insights through practicing problems, all that theoretical knowledge will have a different, clearer light shed on it. Dhamma is no different. You read the suttas and ponder them (theoretical knowledge) then you meditate (practice) and insights come, skills develop. Then the suttas become clearer and you can think and ponder some more because there's more "space" to do so.

The Dhamma is limitless.

Good luck in your practice.


I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.

That's kind of circular. I should practice so I can find out what the point of practice is. Sounds a little too Zen for me...
User avatar
kmath
 
Posts: 257
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:44 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby daverupa » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:55 pm

kmath wrote:I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.


The point of practice is the nibbana of greed, hate, and delusion, which means the cessation of dukkha. Nibbana is just this cessation.

So it is very simple.

kmath wrote:If there is experience after the death of the arahant, from which point is it? All points? No points? Some point?


I wouldn't worry about hypotheticals such as this, especially since this is one of the ones that vexed the Buddha's contemporaries and which was still to be set aside as poorly framed (asking if a tathagata exists after death is a little bit like asking what sort of mother a barren woman is - the question is simple, but impossible to answer since there are problems in the terms). And anyway, even if you got an answer, you couldn't check it for yourself.

So, you'll want to focus on the Dhamma you can verify for yourself here and now.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4239
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby cooran » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:53 pm

hello all,

Articles and Suttas about Nibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#nibbana

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7696
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby SDC » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:04 pm

kmath wrote:But hold on. I didn't ask who does the experiencing. I asked if there is experience for the arahant after his or her death. Ok fine maybe it's not his or her experience. It's just experience. So... what some kind of omnipresence then?

Sure you can say that for a given individual, there is just experience without self. That self is a delusion. I think most of us have seen that in meditation. But there is still this experience from this vantage point. You don't have to call it mine. But for me, there is no experience of your body and your mind. My world is from this point.

If there is experience after the death of the arahant, from which point is it? All points? No points? Some point?


The way I understand it – taking into account everything from my previous post – after death there is still the experience of nibbana. If you insist on knowing from what point, you are still allowing existence to precede experience – having replaced “self” with “point”. You need to undercut the concept of existence to allow this thought experiment to work.

Look, I’m no ariya. This is just how I’ve come to understand it, and though a good deal of my explanation is an intellectual interpretation of these concepts, some is experiential. I can keep trying to clarify, but I hope you’re willing to bend along the way.

kmath wrote:I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.


It is not a basic question. And I think you know that. You just can’t understand why people would be pursuing what they cannot fully explain. However there are many more things to experience from the dhamma on the way to nibbana which can be of great value and be of great benefit. While they may not be as impressive as some other higher level aspects, keep in mind that they are part of the path and if they can be accomplished then it gives one confidence that further aspects along the path are possible.
User avatar
SDC
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm
Location: North Jersey

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:21 pm

kmath wrote:
I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana?
Nibbana is clearly defined as: That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is nibbana. SN IV 251 and IV 321. Nibbana is no longer defining the world, relating to the world, constructing the world in terms of grasping after that which reinforces the sense of self, pushing away that which threatens the sense of self, constructing the world in terms of "I --as unchanging thing -- am."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby seeker242 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:07 pm

kmath wrote:
I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask.

What's the point of practice? To achieve Nibbana. What's Nibbana? Just practice and you'll find out.



If you could really know it by just reading book or having someone tell you about it, there would be no use for practice to begin with. :smile:

That's kind of circular. I should practice so I can find out what the point of practice is. Sounds a little too Zen for me...


The point of practice is freedom from suffering! But, it's not unreasonable to say that if you want to know what something is really like, you have to experience it firsthand. Descriptions of the experience and the experience itself are two different things. Descriptions can only go so far. Words have limits! That's why you can't get enlightenment just by reading books.

:anjali:
User avatar
seeker242
 
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:01 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:19 am

kmath wrote:
Ben wrote:
kmath wrote:I'm starting to think I'd rather be born again.


As what?


:jumping:

Good question...

Need to think about that.


Check out the Nanda Sutta.

After Nanda left to become a monk, he could not stop thinking of his lover who had said to him on leaving: ‘Come back soon, young master.’ Informed of this problem, the Buddha took Nanda by the arm and transported him up to a heaven realm ‘where the nymphs have feet like doves.’ Pointing to these nymphs, he asked Nanda: ‘Which is more beautiful, these nymphs or your girlfriend?’ ‘Compared to these nymphs my girlfriend is like a mutilated monkey,’ Nanda replied. With this new and more beautiful image in his mind Nanda began meditating diligently in the hope of being reborn in the company of these nymphs. When the other monks heard of this, they smirked and laughed at Nanda’s motives, calling him a ‘day labourer,’ i.e. someone who works for meagre wages.
In Buddhism, seeking rebirth in heaven is considered more lofty than rebirth in purgatory, but decidedly inferior to attaining Nirvāṇa.This teasing made Nanda feel somewhat ashamed of himself but eventually this was replaced by self-respect and the determination to practise for the right reasons. Living diligently and in solitude he eventually became enlightened. The taking of Nanda up to heaven is cited as an example of the Buddha’s skilful means (Th. 158). Aśvaghoṣa’s famous poem, the Saundarānandakāvya, is based on the life of Nanda.

http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=280

After attaining enlightenment, Nanda, of course had no more craving for such an existence in that heavenly realm. (Not saying that you have the same craving Nanda did, but in general craving for such a [heavenly] existence can be eradicated too, according to the texts.)
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8151
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby robertk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:40 am

I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Nov 22, 2013 6:57 am

robertk wrote:
I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.



This simile is always superb .

There was never a fire in the first place . Just an inter-depenence of aggregates .

sanjay
Sanjay PS
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:29 am

Sanjay PS wrote:
robertk wrote:
I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.



This simile is always superb .

There was never a fire in the first place . Just an inter-depenence of aggregates .

sanjay
And don't forget, if you are going down that road, there were never any aggregates either.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:38 am

robertk wrote:
I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.
A fire cannot be cold.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Nov 22, 2013 8:46 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:
I guess I'm just kind of shocked that I can't get a straight answer on this. It seems like the most basic question one should ask

I thought my posts were fairly clear.
Consider a fire. If all the fuel is removed and the fire is completly extinguished and cold, where does the fire go?
It is the same for the arahant who has no more desire or ignorance, no more fuel for future rebirth.
A fire cannot be cold.


Cold is just the less fire or the absence of fire . Actually there is nothing called cold , by itself .

The four great elements are earth , fire wind and water , that course through our body in varying intensities from moment to moment , giving rise to various kinds of mental feeling from time to time .

As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay
Sanjay PS
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:05 am

This simile is always superb .

There was never a fire in the first place . Just an inter-depenence of aggregates .

sanjay

[/quote]And don't forget, if you are going down that road, there were never any aggregates either.[/quote]

True , true .

i have yet to reach as far though . But the march is on :smile:

sanjay
Sanjay PS
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:09 am

Sanjay PS wrote:
As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay
There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay
There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.


You see i am no Arhant .

But the truth for an Arhant ( which is the ultimate truth ) is that all he sees , smells , hears , touches, congnizes and tastes is nothing but sorrow , because the 5 kandhas ( 4 parts of the mind , and matter ) are in continuous state of perpetual change , decay ; both for the observer as well as that what is being observed.

The four great elements that Arhants Ajhan Chan , Venerable Ledi Sayadaw and Venerable Webu Sayadaw refer to , exhibit the characteristics of heaviness to lightness , heat to no heat , great motion to stillness ; cohesion to no cohesion . Respective of earth , fire , wind and water , which can be easily felt within our body and minds, and are constituents .These kandhas or elements are further broken down through insight ,as nothing but sub-atomic particles that vanishes as soon as it arises , hence , the experience as there is no such thing that exists

The worlds exists , on the laws of inter-dependence , which can be felt both practically , experientially , intellectually. For Z to stand A is required , for A to stand , Z is required . Nothing exits on its own . Hence it is easy for me to intellectually understand that there is no I , Me and Mine . Experientially , i haven't yet finished walking the mile . You may well have realized and uprooted the defilements . Hence , the wisdom .

All said and done , personally i have realized , that these very deep and subtle truths are far far ahead . May well take me many many innumerable life times to realize .

What i try to see , is whether the mental contents of conceit, anger , envy , hatred , lust , dullness has a diminishing return whenever i walk on the Noble Eightfold Path . This i find is happening . So i continue to walk on regardless :smile:

sanjay
Sanjay PS
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:26 pm

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:04 am

robertk wrote:dear spiny
Yes, that is right. Somtimes parinibbana is divided into two: kilesa
parinibbana (cessation of kilesa)and khanda parinibbana (cessation of
the khandas) . So khandha parinibbama is the death of the arahat, no more rebirth. no dukkha


So the "conventional death" described above presumably means a death followed by continued rebirth?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
User avatar
Spiny Norman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:08 am

Sanjay PS wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay
There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.


You see i am no Arhant .

But the truth for an Arhant ( which is the ultimate truth ) is that all he sees , smells , hears , touches, congnizes and tastes is nothing but sorrow ,.
If that were true, then the Arahant would not have realized the 3rd Noble Truth.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby robertk » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:28 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
robertk wrote:dear spiny
Yes, that is right. Somtimes parinibbana is divided into two: kilesa
parinibbana (cessation of kilesa)and khanda parinibbana (cessation of
the khandas) . So khandha parinibbama is the death of the arahat, no more rebirth. no dukkha


So the "conventional death" described above presumably means a death followed by continued rebirth?

Exactly. People like you and me who die with a full measure of desire and ignorance are instantly reborn in one of the 31 planes of existence.
User avatar
robertk
 
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.


Yes, though a distinction is made in the suttas between internal and external elements, eg here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
User avatar
Spiny Norman
 
Posts: 2841
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:43 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.


Yes, though a distinction is made in the suttas between internal and external elements, eg here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
It is still a matter of what one experiences, contact.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19748
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests