I'd rather be reborn

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Benjamin » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay
There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.


And the same could (and should) be said of the khandas — they are a way of exploring and talking about any given moment, not reified concrete things.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:59 am

Benjamin wrote:
And the same could (and should) be said of the khandas — they are a way of exploring and talking about any given moment, not reified concrete things.

:anjali:
Indeed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:16 pm

sanjay[/quote]There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.[/quote]

You see i am no Arhant .

But the truth for an Arhant ( which is the ultimate truth ) is that all he sees , smells , hears , touches, congnizes and tastes is nothing but sorrow ,.[/quote]If that were true, then the Arahant would not have realized the 3rd Noble Truth.[/quote]

The Four Noble Truths cant be isolated from each other .

The cessation of suffering only happens when the six senses do not get labeled , and appears as it is . Hence , there is mere awareness .

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Benjamin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
As with the laws of inter-dependence , the four elements depend on each other .

sanjay
There are no "four elements." Four elements are simply ways of talking about experience, and experience is not a thing.


And the same could (and should) be said of the khandas — they are a way of exploring and talking about any given moment, not reified concrete things.

:anjali:


They khandas are not concrete things , but a continually changing process ,mentioned as earlier . But one must remember it is said that when Prince Siddharth became a Samma Sambuddha , the mighty earth as a witness to the incredible achievement quaked out of reverence , which was felt across 10 thousand world systems .

Have i got a proof of it, no ! Faith , yes .

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Nov 22, 2013 10:40 pm

Sanjay PS wrote:
The cessation of suffering only happens when the six senses do not get labeled , and appears as it is . Hence , there is mere awareness .
Suffering stops with the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Benjamin » Sat Nov 23, 2013 2:15 am

Sanjay PS wrote: But one must remember it is said that when Prince Siddharth became a Samma Sambuddha , the mighty earth as a witness to the incredible achievement quaked out of reverence , which was felt across 10 thousand world systems .

Have i got a proof of it, no ! Faith , yes .

sanjay



I've always taken that passage to be more of a "veneration by exaggeration" sort of thing, but you are of course free to believe that it is literal and I know that many do. I suppose it isn't too different from Christians disputing on how literally to interpret the Bible.

Anywho, back to topic I suppose:

Kmath, are you still at the same place on this issue as you where when you created the thread? I'm curious to know how this issue has developed for you.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:16 am

Benjamin wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote: But one must remember it is said that when Prince Siddharth became a Samma Sambuddha , the mighty earth as a witness to the incredible achievement quaked out of reverence , which was felt across 10 thousand world systems .

Have i got a proof of it, no ! Faith , yes .

sanjay



I've always taken that passage to be more of a "veneration by exaggeration" sort of thing, but you are of course free to believe that it is literal and I know that many do. I suppose it isn't too different from Christians disputing on how literally to interpret the Bible.

Anywho, back to topic I suppose:

Kmath, are you still at the same place on this issue as you where when you created the thread? I'm curious to know how this issue has developed for you.

:anjali:



A few years ago, it was understood that there was just one universe . The other day there was the program in natural geographic that highlighted that science has now found that our universe is not the only universe and there are many countless parallel universes such as ours .

Two thousand five hundred years ago the Buddha , discovered this fact and many more that science keeps discovering . The Buddha however said that , a Buddhas knowledge is akin to the incalculable leaves of a vast forest , yet what is of concern is of only the leaves that need fill a handful . The handful of leaves are only about suffering and only suffering , however beatific be the living .

Our lives as humans have limited longevity and limited depth of senses , hence , its only natural that many things will sound exaggerated . Take for example , had we been born 100 or 200 years ago , during this time should any of a fellow human being describe to us , about the happenings 200 years after , in good probability we would have rubbished it away . But we now know otherwise .

There are also these flying termites that come into being soon after a nights rain , their life spans being short , they dont get to see the morning sun, but instead are immensely attracted to artificial light . Its just that due to their limited life span , they will not understand that there is something called as a sun , with a light infinitely incomparable . Nor would they believe that there are other beings with seemingly endless life spans , extending into countless seconds or minutes .

Life and living will will always be relative. What matters is that there is sorrow, there is a cause of sorrow , there is an end to sorrow and there is this universal path leading to the end of sorrow .

Blind faith is of no use while walking on the path . Faith born of reason , always holds a person in good stead . My wife and me would never , ever kill an ant , be it someone saying , that by doing so , the life of our little boy and girl could be spared and traded . Yet we would not be upset , should we unintentionally walk over a tiny being .

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:35 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
The cessation of suffering only happens when the six senses do not get labeled , and appears as it is . Hence , there is mere awareness .
Suffering stops with the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion.


Yes , when one does not cling to the six senses , the destruction of greed, hatred , delusion , clinging to both the good and the bad is extinguished .

But if we have had a profound experience mid-way , it does not necessarily mean that another deeper profound experience will only see us becoming a better person ( or experience Nibbana) , and we wait for such to happen . At least this is what i have realized in the fifteen years of having plunged . What really matters is to keep working on Sila ( Morality ) , Samadhi ( Right Concentration ) and Panna ( Wisdom ) . Gradually our shortcomings do reduce , and we become that much more a better person , good for oneself and good for many others . The most enjoyable fruit as yet , is the little different ways of seeing things in day to day living and in how they can reach out in unravelling wisdom . The thinking and attitude changes forever .

Life is a wonderful teacher , provided we are wanting to learn .

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Benjamin » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:33 pm

Sanjay PS wrote:
The cessation of suffering only happens when the six senses do not get labeled , and appears as it is . Hence , there is mere awareness .

sanjay


It's funny, I know there are some Buddhists following in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw who would say the cessation of suffering happens (or is at least catalyzed by) when the six senses do get labelled. Also, what do you mean by "mere awareness"?

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Sanjay PS » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:22 pm

Benjamin wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
The cessation of suffering only happens when the six senses do not get labeled , and appears as it is . Hence , there is mere awareness .

sanjay


It's funny, I know there are some Buddhists following in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw who would say the cessation of suffering happens (or is at least catalyzed by) when the six senses do get labelled. Also, what do you mean by "mere awareness"?

:anjali:


Hi Benjamin,

The Buddha once gave a very concise discourse in the middle of the road to a person who was insistent on hearing the Dhamma then and there , more so since the Buddha saw the person had little time left to live , and had by then become ripe to understand and imbibe the Dhamma. To what i had read , i recall ( will look for the sutta and post the exact in full ) :

In tasting , let there just be the tasting , in the hearing , the hearing , in the seeing , the seeing , in the cognizing, the cognizing, in the smelling , the smelling and in the touching , the touching . Whenever one evaluates the sense impressions , the truth gets distorted and suffering follows .

"Mere awareness" for an Arhant , is the 4 parts of the mind (consciousness , perception , sensation and reaction, respective to the six senses ) and matter are just changing kalpas ( sub-atomic particles ) that arise and pass at incomprehensible rapidity . Hence for an Arhant anything and everything is just but an ever changing stream of continual change, except of course the unconditioned , Nibbana .

This is to my understanding , and i could be wrong . But i dont look that far ahead, its a very very advanced stage , which may well take many many countless life times of steadfast diligence and conduct . Just Sila , Samadhi and Panna , by itself is so Noble and large hearted :smile: Nibbana , when it happens , will happen . No worries .

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Benjamin » Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:26 am

Sanjay PS wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Sanjay PS wrote:
The cessation of suffering only happens when the six senses do not get labeled , and appears as it is . Hence , there is mere awareness .

sanjay


It's funny, I know there are some Buddhists following in the tradition of Mahasi Sayadaw who would say the cessation of suffering happens (or is at least catalyzed by) when the six senses do get labelled. Also, what do you mean by "mere awareness"?

:anjali:


Hi Benjamin,

The Buddha once gave a very concise discourse in the middle of the road to a person who was insistent on hearing the Dhamma then and there , more so since the Buddha saw the person had little time left to live , and had by then become ripe to understand and imbibe the Dhamma. To what i had read , i recall ( will look for the sutta and post the exact in full ) :

In tasting , let there just be the tasting , in the hearing , the hearing , in the seeing , the seeing , in the cognizing, the cognizing, in the smelling , the smelling and in the touching , the touching . Whenever one evaluates the sense impressions , the truth gets distorted and suffering follows .

"Mere awareness" for an Arhant , is the 4 parts of the mind (consciousness , perception , sensation and reaction, respective to the six senses ) and matter are just changing kalpas ( sub-atomic particles ) that arise and pass at incomprehensible rapidity . Hence for an Arhant anything and everything is just but an ever changing stream of continual change, except of course the unconditioned , Nibbana .

This is to my understanding , and i could be wrong . But i dont look that far ahead, its a very very advanced stage , which may well take many many countless life times of steadfast diligence and conduct . Just Sila , Samadhi and Panna , by itself is so Noble and large hearted :smile: Nibbana , when it happens , will happen . No worries .

sanjay


I believe you're referencing the Bahiya Sutta. And the same sutta is referenced by those who practice a technique of noting. They note the six senses, thus stopping them from getting caught up in the content but rather seeing those six basic "building blocks" of reality for what they are. We're talking about the same thing here I believe.

But once again, back to topic.

Kmath, the crux of your problem seems to revolve around the desire to exist. And I don't think the solution to that problem is to try and generate some sort of disgust for existence, but to rather see deeply the real nature of experience. For a rough example, once you know how a magic trick is performed, it no longer leaves you with that feeling of solidity/reality that it previously had. In knowing how the trick works, you are no longer interested in it because you've seen it for what it is. So the point here is to really investigate this experience, rather then getting lost in it (one extreme) or trying to push it away in denial (the other).

Just my experience, anyway.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Digity » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:30 am

Here's my take on this. I follow the Buddha's path, because I want my life to be in harmony with the truth. Those who are reborn do so because they don't yet see the truth of reality. Once that truth is seen then there's a letting go and there's no longer a becoming. Once we get to that stage there's no desire to be reborn, there's no desire to "become" something. That's ultimate freedom. If you'd rather have more lives of becoming rather than a true release then I think your picking fool's gold over real gold.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:46 am

Benjamin wrote:And I don't think the solution to that problem is to try and generate some sort of disgust for existence, but to rather see deeply the real nature of experience. For a rough example, once you know how a magic trick is performed, it no longer leaves you with that feeling of solidity/reality that it previously had. In knowing how the trick works, you are no longer interested in it because you've seen it for what it is. So the point here is to really investigate this experience, rather then getting lost in it (one extreme) or trying to push it away in denial (the other).


Yes, the suttas talk about disenchantment and dispassion, here for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Benjamin » Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:06 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Benjamin wrote:And I don't think the solution to that problem is to try and generate some sort of disgust for existence, but to rather see deeply the real nature of experience. For a rough example, once you know how a magic trick is performed, it no longer leaves you with that feeling of solidity/reality that it previously had. In knowing how the trick works, you are no longer interested in it because you've seen it for what it is. So the point here is to really investigate this experience, rather then getting lost in it (one extreme) or trying to push it away in denial (the other).


Yes, the suttas talk about disenchantment and dispassion, here for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Exactly. The point is that dispassion does not come from trying to somehow conjure it up via mental willpower, but as a direct result of seeing things as they are. It will happen in time if the conditions are right. The mere preference of not wanting to be reborn won't do any good if it doesn't inspire the individual to practice. Likewise, if this issue isn't stopping kmath from continuing on in his/her Buddhist practice I don't see it as a huge deal.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby manas » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:32 am

Benjamin wrote: Kmath, are you still at the same place on this issue as you where when you created the thread? I'm curious to know how this issue has developed for you.
:anjali:


Hi Benjamin,

Not just kmath, but as far as I can surmise, every one of us reading this topic, is still at the same place regarding this issue - because I'd safely guess that bhava-tanha hasn't been extinguished in any of us here, right? None of us are arahants... So, on a deep level, we must all want to journey on, whether we admit it openly or not, or even to ourselves.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:14 am

manas wrote: I'd safely guess that bhava-tanha hasn't been extinguished in any of us here, right? None of us are arahants... So, on a deep level, we must all want to journey on, whether we admit it openly or not, or even to ourselves.
I would not word it that way. It makes it sound like a simple choice. One may not want to journey on because it hurts, but to disentangle oneslf takes effort and time.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby kmath » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:22 pm

Benjamin wrote:
Kmath, are you still at the same place on this issue as you where when you created the thread? I'm curious to know how this issue has developed for you.

:anjali:


I remain a skeptic but I think that's ok for now. The practice is about the present -- not the future. As long as I follow the truth of my experience, Nibbana I'm sure will take care of itself if and when the time comes.

I appreciate all the feedback.

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby manas » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:54 am

tiltbillings wrote:
manas wrote: I'd safely guess that bhava-tanha hasn't been extinguished in any of us here, right? None of us are arahants... So, on a deep level, we must all want to journey on, whether we admit it openly or not, or even to ourselves.
I would not word it that way. It makes it sound like a simple choice. One may not want to journey on because it hurts, but to disentangle oneslf takes effort and time.


Hi Tilt,

I didn't mean that we consciously want to journey on, I was using the term in the sense that, bhava-tanha is a kind of 'wanting' of sorts. But I can see your point. A stream enterer who has seen the truth of the Dhamma, might then have the aspiration to be totally free from tanha and not have to reappear anywhere, but also realize that there's a long journey to be walked to attain that, and that an aspiration or wish alone doesn't get the job done. (Is that what you were getting at?)

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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Kenshou » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:03 am

I think the funny thing is that, the conditions for the end of continuance are the same as the conditions for ending any fear of non-continuance. Not being reborn requires destruction of the 3 roots, which is also the condition for the end of dukkha. But the reduction of those factors is demonstrably beneficial in the present life regardless of further implications beyond that scope. If you make it to the end of that reduction you'd be ready for the end of rebirth or whatever else, so it's no problem. So, by all means we should just practice earnestly in the present, because if we do that everything is going to take care of itself. Probably.
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Re: I'd rather be reborn

Postby Kim OHara » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:37 am

kmath wrote:
Benjamin wrote:
Kmath, are you still at the same place on this issue as you where when you created the thread? I'm curious to know how this issue has developed for you.

:anjali:


I remain a skeptic but I think that's ok for now. The practice is about the present -- not the future. As long as I follow the truth of my experience, Nibbana I'm sure will take care of itself if and when the time comes.

I appreciate all the feedback.

:anjali:


Kenshou wrote:I think the funny thing is that, the conditions for the end of continuance are the same as the conditions for ending any fear of non-continuance. Not being reborn requires destruction of the 3 roots, which is also the condition for the end of dukkha. But the reduction of those factors is demonstrably beneficial in the present life regardless of further implications beyond that scope. If you make it to the end of that reduction you'd be ready for the end of rebirth or whatever else, so it's no problem. So, by all means we should just practice earnestly in the present, because if we do that everything is going to take care of itself. Probably.

You've arrived at similar positions from different starting points.
That's about where I am, too, fwiw.

:namaste:
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