cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby daverupa » Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:57 pm

SamKR wrote:The important thing is the understanding of dependency.


:goodpost:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby SDC » Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:39 pm

Well said, Sam.
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:24 pm

SamKR wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
But then how do we experience anicca if not in terms of time? We could say anicca is the experience of change, but isn't the passage of time implicit in change?

In terms of dependent origination and cessation, in my opinion. Mere observations of oscillations over time will not give any insight of anicca the Buddha is talking about. The observation should be accompanied by the understanding of dependent arising and cessation: when this is, that is; when this is not, that is not.
interestingly, in seeing the rise and fall of the nama/rupa process of experience one also sees the interdependent aspects. This not something one needs to think about.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:35 pm

robertk wrote:Satisampajanna are momentary elements that arise and fall away instantly
There is no duration to the process? As such "rise and fall away instantly" makes no sense.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby Viscid » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:29 pm

SamKR wrote:The important thing is the understanding of dependency. When there is any arising (experience) there is always just this dependent arising, when there is cessation there is just the cessation. I think each arising is timeless; sense of time is imputed when there is a sense of an observer (here) observing these different arisings (there) one after another. I think time becomes irrelevant once there is mere observation.


So, this reply is result of developed meditation practice, right? Does the 'dependent' aspect of a 'dependent arising' refer to the knowledge of the conditions which necessitated that particular arising of experience? Is there an experiential aspect to that dependency? And I am assuming when you say 'there is just the arising/cessation' to mean that you are unaware of anything other than that experience at that moment-- there is a sort of epoché at work?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby SarathW » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:45 pm

I think Sam answer this OP based on ultimate sense.
But we still need to investigate (accept/reject/ignored) the OP.

So I came up with a hypothetical situation just to prove that Cittas arise and pass away billions per instant!
a) As per Abhidhamma, Cittas are considered as Paramattha. I accept, as it is for the time being
b) I assume all the beings in the world (human,animal.Deva,Brahama) all attained Arahantship so there is only Citta in this world.
c) Then due to ignorance one being appeared in this world. His/her first thought is Bhavanga Citta. (no seventeen thought process completed yet)
d) I assume the vibration on Citta is faster than sound Waves and light Waves.

Based on that hypothetical I would say that that the Citta before the first Bhavanga Citta arise and pass away say billions per instant.
:shrug:
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby SamKR » Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:44 pm

Viscid wrote:
SamKR wrote:The important thing is the understanding of dependency. When there is any arising (experience) there is always just this dependent arising, when there is cessation there is just the cessation. I think each arising is timeless; sense of time is imputed when there is a sense of an observer (here) observing these different arisings (there) one after another. I think time becomes irrelevant once there is mere observation.


So, this reply is result of developed meditation practice, right?

The reply is not a result of developed meditation practice as I consider myself not developed yet. It is a result of understanding based on limited reading of the suttas, and pondering, and trying to apply it to experiences - which is helping me. My understanding is limited and could even be wrong, and I am open to rectify my incorrect understandings.
Viscid wrote:Does the 'dependent' aspect of a 'dependent arising' refer to the knowledge of the conditions which necessitated that particular arising of experience?

By contemplation what we can be sure of is that independent arising is not possible, and that there are definitely conditions (sankhara) of any arising, but precise conditions may not always be apparent. However any arising is dependent upon avijja, sankhara, vinnana, nama-rupa, and so on.

Viscid wrote:Is there an experiential aspect to that dependency?

I think there is experiential aspect to dependency even for non-ariya. But only those who gained the Dhamma-Eye has directly seen this aspect uprooting any doubt about the Dhamma.

Viscid wrote:And I am assuming when you say 'there is just the arising/cessation' to mean that you are unaware of anything other than that experience at that moment-- there is a sort of epoché at work?

Actually I have not studied and understood the philosophical branch of phenomenology to any significant degree, and didn't know what epoché means either. :) But when I said "when arising there is just the arising", I meant in pure elementary experiences there are just those experiences (with wisdom), everything else are unnecessary concepts and reactions veiling the reality.
"... In the seen merely the seen, in the heard merely the heard, in the sensed merely the sensed, in the cognized merely the cognized ... "
Bahiya Sutta

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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby SamKR » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:15 am

SarathW wrote:a) As per Abhidhamma, Cittas are considered as Paramattha. I accept, as it is for the time being

This is one of the things I need to make sense of. If billions of cittas arise and pass away in an instant what is paramattha (ultimate) there? If we look at the stream of cittas (which we label as citta) then such a stream is an abstraction or just a concept, then how can it be seen as paramattha? If we look at an individual citta that arises and passes away instantly, then where is parmattha even there?
Or, perhaps I am not understanding the meaning of paramattha.
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby rohana » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:44 am

SamKR wrote:
yam kiñci samudayadhammam sabbam tam nirodhadhammam
Whatever is of coarising-nature is all of cessation-nature.

To arise is to experience; if there is no experience there is no arising. Whatever arises or experienced (whether arising in a billionth of a second OR arising and perceived to be lasting for years or even several lives) - all those khandhas (sets) - are of the nature of cessation.


I think this is pretty much the way I understand it. What the sōtāpanna realizes is the universality of impermanence - that anything that arises must sooner or later, cease.

From Sāmanēra Bodhesāko's essay on aniccā, which I'm currently reading:

    You and I would have no difficulty in accepting the statement “all circles are round.” It is obvious. Indeed, it is virtually a pleonasm. True, we have not inspected every circle that exists and tested each for roundness. True, we may have personally come across but a minute fraction of all circles that presently exist (let alone those that have been or will come to be). And yet this introduces no jot of doubt into our conviction that all circles are in fact round. Our certainty is structural, not statistical.

    On the other hand the statement “All swans are white” is statistical. We must always allow for the possibility that a black swan might be found; and black swans were in fact discovered during the explorations of Australia, after which logicians had to change their paradigm to the proposal that “All crows are black.” To date (1988) no white crows have been reported, but the universe is a vast and varied place. Perhaps in some as-yet-unexplored hinterland of Borneo…. But we do not suppose, however vast and varied the universe may appear, that some day a circle will be discovered which is, say, pentagonal. We understand that this cannot be. The statement “All circles are round” describes not a statistical observation but a structural necessity: if it isn’t round it’s not a circle. (We may ignore the irrelevant case of circulars which are in fact rectangular.)

    But suppose (unlikely though it may be) that we should meet someone who though otherwise both sane and intelligent does not happen to see the structural necessity for the roundness of circles. He, presented with the proposition that all circles are round, might nevertheless agree with it. After all, in his entire life he has never once seen a single circle that was not round as round could be. Yet his assent would be of a different nature than ours. For him doubt would still be possible. Perhaps in the frozen methane wastes of Io, or in the intense gravity of the sun’s crucible, there might exist a circle that was, say, oblong. He could not be sure, for he has failed to recognize the principle that roundness is the condition for circles. When there is roundness there are circles; with arising of roundness circles arise. When there is not roundness there are not circles; with ceasing of roundness circles cease.

    And even if he were to assent to this principle, yet for as long as he failed to see its necessity that assent of his would be statistical in nature, and would thereby miss the point entirely. Reviewing (again) the argument by which he became convinced of this truth about circles he might think, “This time I see the reasonableness of that structural principle; and when I thought about it last it also seemed correct to me. But will I still agree with it tomorrow?” It can be said of our friend that although he may (in a certain sense) see the structural necessity for the roundness of circles, yet he has failed to see that necessity in a structural way. He has thereby succeeded only in raising his blindness to a higher plane, and has not thereby achieved vision.

    ...

    What needs to be seen is not their diversity but that which is common to every circle.[18] And for this it is sufficient for our friend to sit down with one single circle of any convenient color, size, and composition, and to try to see what is essential to it. What is there dependent upon which the circle is in fact a circle? If he comes to recognize the essence of any one circle he will understand the essence of all circles. And if our friend can avoid being misled by theories, if he can eliminate the extraneous, if he can attend to what is essential, he may succeed in doing just this, and thereby pass beyond all doubt, as are we, as to the fact that “All circles are round.”

    Change: A Circular Argument

Just like seeing the properties common to all circles, to realize the universality of impermanence what needs to be done is (after gaining a certain amount of concentration) simply attending to the rise and fall of either the five aggregates or the six external and internal sense bases - which allows to survey the 'All' without needing to worry about their extraneous details (at least, that's my understanding). The problem with these commentarial theories is their unprovability through experience, which means they are probably irrelevant to the path.
"Delighting in existence, O monks, are gods and men; they are attached to existence, they revel in existence. When the Dhamma for the cessation of existence is being preached to them, their minds do not leap towards it, do not get pleased with it, do not get settled in it, do not find confidence in it. That is how, monks, some lag behind."
- It. p 43
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:37 am

tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
But then how do we experience anicca if not in terms of time? We could say anicca is the experience of change, but isn't the passage of time implicit in change?

In terms of dependent origination and cessation, in my opinion. Mere observations of oscillations over time will not give any insight of anicca the Buddha is talking about. The observation should be accompanied by the understanding of dependent arising and cessation: when this is, that is; when this is not, that is not.
interestingly, in seeing the rise and fall of the nama/rupa process of experience one also sees the interdependent aspects. This not something one needs to think about.

That's certainly my experience. It becomes much more obvious, once you've paid close attention, that this arises because of that. It's just obvious. You discern sequences: hearing, not liking, anger... etc...

:anjali:
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby Mr Man » Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:52 am

Intellectually it doesn't take to much to understand that "this" arises because of "that". Is the "close attention" method a really a different kind of understanding? Are we actually seeing a process?
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 13, 2013 9:03 am

Mr Man wrote:Intellectually it doesn't take to much to understand that "this" arises because of "that". Is the "close attention" method a really a different kind of understanding? Are we actually seeing a process?
What do you think is the case?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby Mr Man » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:00 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Intellectually it doesn't take to much to understand that "this" arises because of "that". Is the "close attention" method a really a different kind of understanding? Are we actually seeing a process?
What do you think is the case?


I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby Mkoll » Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:19 am

rohana wrote:The problem with these commentarial theories is their unprovability through experience, which means they are probably irrelevant to the path.

:goodpost:

There are like 20,000 Sutta Pitaka suttas... I don't think we need much more to think about.

:thinking:

~

:buddha2:
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby appicchato » Fri Dec 13, 2013 12:22 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:from Nyanaponika page 164 . . .
And which book would that be?


http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Nyanaponika_Thera_Abhidhamma_studies.pdf
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:14 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Intellectually it doesn't take to much to understand that "this" arises because of "that". Is the "close attention" method a really a different kind of understanding? Are we actually seeing a process?
What do you think is the case?


I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.


If ‘close attention’ is within the context of sati in the satipaṭṭhāna suttas, this would be free from conceptualization or any mental ‘conclusions’ of the objects observed.

As cited earlier in this thread, the Avijja Sutta discusses how cognitions are ‘seen differently’ (aññatto passati,Ṭhānissaro's 'sees ... as something separate' is a dubious translation) than the attention given them by the puthujjana.
Anuvicca papañca nāmarūpaṃ
ajjhattaṃ bahiddhā ca rogamūlaṃ,
sabbarogamūlabandhanā pamutto
anuvidito tādi pavuccate tathattā
.

“Having known the naming of objects,
With its proliferation, its root in illness – within and without;
One is released from bondage to the root of all illness.
And thus is called the Knowing One – the Such.

– Sn. 3.6 (Sabhiyasuttaṃ)

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby kirk5a » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:33 pm

Narada Maha Thera wrote:After this comes that stage of
representative cognition termed the determining consciousness
(Votthapana). Discrimination is exercised at
this stage. Freewill plays its part here. Immediately after
there arises the psychologically most important stage—
Impulsion or Javana. It is at this stage that an action is
judged whether moral or immoral. Kamma is performed
at this stage; if viewed rightly (yoniso manasikàra), the
Javana becomes moral; if viewed wrongly (ayoniso manasikàra),
it becomes immoral. In the case of an Arahant this
Javana is neither moral nor immoral, but merely functional
(Kiriya).
...
The Manodvàràvajjana
(mind-door consciousness), a Kriyà Citta,
functions as the Votthapana consciousness. One can use
one’s freewill at this stage. The seven Javana thoughtmoments
constitute Kamma.

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:18 pm

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Intellectually it doesn't take to much to understand that "this" arises because of "that". Is the "close attention" method a really a different kind of understanding? Are we actually seeing a process?
What do you think is the case?


I think the brain is creating the conclusions and that the close attention method is not different to any other way of understanding causality. That we need to acknowledge that and keep going. I think the notion that we can become very still and then somehow observe things as they "really" happening is suspect (and that if we repeat this action often enough we will eventually have a liberating insight). I think that we should avoid giving transformative value to particular experiences.
In other words, you are arguing that we can think our way out of samsara.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby Mr Man » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:10 pm

Not at all. What I'm saying is that if we believe we are observing "this arising because of that" or "if we believe we are observing arising and passing away" that is just more movement of the mind and we should not buy into it. We should know it as such and continue.

We can contemplate causality and impermanence at any time, as a mental activity and with awareness. We do not need great stillness to do this. It is not something so special.
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Re: cittas arise and pass away billions per instant

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:15 pm

Mr Man wrote:Not at all. What I'm saying is that if we believe we are observing "this arising because of that" or "if we believe we are observing arising and passing away" that is just more movement of the mind and we should not buy into it. We should know it as such and continue.

We can contemplate causality and impermanence at any time, as a mental activity and with awareness. We do not need great stillness to do this. It is not something so special.
What do you mean by contemplate?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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