mikenz66 wrote:If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
daverupa wrote:mikenz66 wrote:If it's not possible to make such analyses experientially, I don't see why there would be so much in the Suttas and Abdhidhamma about it.
And yet those are two sources where references to billions of mind-moments are exactly not found...
kirk5a wrote:The question I had was about "votthapana cittas" in particular. I don't feel any closer to being able to recognize these experientially, much less how many might occupy a split second.
mikenz66 wrote:Well, yes, I agree. I can't comment on that from experience.
However, that there are many mind-body processes are going on in split seconds doesn't require any particular Dhamma knowledge or training to figure out, and with a little training it is much clearer. I'm puzzled that anyone would have a problem with that.
But some of the questions above seem to call these rather simple observations into question.
daverupa wrote:I started from the assumption that the Nikayas were sufficient, in the sense of their being particular leaves not left on the tree, if you take my meaning. The lack of the billions is noteworthy in this respect. ... .
mikenz66 wrote:Well, OK, but it depends on how you look at it.
I start with the assumption that the Commentaries/Visuddhimagga are based on experience of adepts, and try to understand what it is saying in those terms.
"As for the individual who has attained neither internal tranquillity of awareness nor insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, he should approach an individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated? How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Life, person, pleasure, pain — just these alone
Join in one conscious moment that flicks by.
Devas, though they live for eighty-four thousand kalpas,
Are not the same for two such moments....
Breakup of dhammas is foredoomed at their birth;
Those present decay, unmingled with those past.
They come from nowhere, break up, nowhere go;
Flash in and out, as lightning in the sky.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question54.htmAnother supercomputer called MDGrape-3, built by the Japanese company RIKEN, has a theoretical maximum speed of 1 petaflop (1 guadrillion operations per second),
mikenz66 wrote:Yes, I get that. However, rapidly rising and falling phenomena is definitely in the suttas, and is quite readily observable experientially. If you take out the hyperbolic "billions" and replace it by "hundreds" or "thousands" I don't really see a problem.
Is there no interest in discussing how the sutta and Abhidhamma texts relate to actual experience?
Santirana-citta is succeeded by votthapana-citta (determining-consciousness). Votthapana is another function of citta; the votthapana-citta determines the object in the sense-door process. After it has determined the object it is succeeded by kusala cittas or by akusala cittas. The conditions through which it arises are different from the conditions for santirana-citta which is produced by kamma. Votthapana-citta is not vipaka and it is not kusala or akusala but it is an ahetuka kiriyacitta. As we have seen, the votthapana-citta is actually the mano-dvaravajjana-citta which performs the function of votthapana in the sense-door process and is then called votthapana-citta. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta performs two function in the mind-door process it performs the function of adverting to an object through the mind-door, and in the sense-door process it performs the function of votthapana.
Whatever we see, it is not I, not me, nor a man, not a woman. In the eye, there is just color. It arises and passes away. So who is seeing the object? There is no seer in the object. Then how is the object seen? On account of certain causes. What are the causes? Eyes are one cause; they must be intact, in good order. Second, object or color must come in front of the eyes, must reflect on the retina of the eyes. Third, there must be light. Fourth, there must be attention, a mental factor. If those four causes are present, then there arises a knowing faculty called eye consciousness. If any one of the causes is missing, there will not be any seeing. If eyes are blind, no seeing. If there is no light, no seeing. If there is no attention, no seeing. But none of the causes can claim, "I am the seer." They're just constantly arising and passing.
As soon as it passes away, we say, "I am seeing." You are not seeing; you are just thinking, "I am seeing." This is called conditioning. Because our mind is conditioned, when we hear the sound, we say, "I am hearing." But there is no hearer waiting in the car to hear the sound. Sound creates a wave, and, when it strikes against the eardrum, ear consciousness is the effect. Sound is not a man, nor a woman; it is just a sound that arises and passes away. But, according to our conditioning, we say, "That woman is singing and I am hearing." But you're not hearing, you are thinking, "I am hearing." Sound is already heard and gone. There is no "I" who heard the sound; it is the world of concept. Buddha discovered this in the physical level, in the mental level: how everything is happening without an actor, without a doer - empty phenomenon go rolling on.
robertk wrote:why should it be exaggeration
Mind(nama) arises and falls faster than matter and even something as crude as a computer processes quite fast:http://www.howstuffworks.com/question54.htmAnother supercomputer called MDGrape-3, built by the Japanese company RIKEN, has a theoretical maximum speed of 1 petaflop (1 guadrillion operations per second),
kirk5a wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to describe this citta in a way that can be related to experience. "determines the object in the sense-door process" ... means what, exactly?
mikenz66 wrote:kirk5a wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to describe this citta in a way that can be related to experience. "determines the object in the sense-door process" ... means what, exactly?
Well, I don't know personally.
Immediately thereupon there arises at the eye-door, and based on the sensitive eye-organ, the eye-consciousness, while performing the function of 'seeing' (dassana).... Immediately thereafter there arises the mind-element (Tab.I, 39, 55) performing the function of 'receiving' (sampaticchana) the object of that consciousness....
''Immediately thereafter there arises... the mind-consciousness-element (Tab. I, 40, 41, 56), while 'investigating' (santirana) the object received by the mind-element...
"Immediately thereafter there arises the functional, rootless mind-consciousness-element (Tab. I, 71), accompanied by indifference, while performing the function of 'determining' (votthapana) the object......
"Now, if the object is large, then immediately afterwards there flash forth 6 or 7 'impulsive moments' (javana-citta), constituted by one of the 8 wholesome, or 12 unwholesome, or 9 functional classes of consciousness (Tab. I, 1-8; 22-23; 72-80).