Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

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Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby chg2winter » Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:50 pm

How do you describe the difference between the two? Right mindfullness vs Right concentration
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby bodom » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:42 pm

Here is a short snippet from Bhante G:

Mindfulness is a broader and larger function than concentration. it is an all-encompassing function. Concentration is exclusive. It settles down on one item and ignores everything else. Mindfulness is inclusive. It stands back from the focus of attention and watches with a broad focus, quick to notice any change that occurs.


See the chapter Mindfulness Versus Concentration in his book Mindfulness in Plain English from whixh thisa quote is taken:

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe14.html

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby daverupa » Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:51 pm

The two terms can be unpacked a little:

sammasati & sammasamadhi

This 'samma' doesn't really mean 'right', it means 'integrous' in the sense that sati and samadhi and the other six aspects of the Path are integrated with one another, each one supporting the later ones as well as supporting the current Path progress one is experiencing.

So, samma-sati is a mindfulness that's integrated with, among other things, samma-vayama, 'integrous effort' (right effort, otherwise).

So with integrated effort tasking us with generating and increasing wholesome states while reducing and eliminating unwholesome states, it takes integrated mindfulness to note which aspect of effort is called for in any actual case, and it takes integrated composure (samadhi, though often rendered 'concentration' as you have it) to hardwire these changes into citta (to be very brief).

Another thing this is all integrated with is samma-sankappa, integrous ('right') intention, specifically renunciation. This is the idea that the five physical senses are set aside as unsavory inputs, and this is what generates seclusion from sensuality, a significant part of samma-samadhi.

So these terms aren't so much strict categories as they are different colors on a color wheel, with blending and mutual reinforcement between these Path factors. In this way they are perhaps best seen as facets of practice, instead of separate modules of practice.

:heart:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby fivebells » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:04 pm

Mindfulness means keeping something in mind, e.g., to remember to rest attention on the breath in some way and bring it back when it wanders. Concentration means attending specifically to some object such as the breath.
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby santa100 » Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:25 pm

Ven. Bodhi's instruction from his 8NP essay: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... d.html#ch6
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:33 am

In the strict sense in regards to the N8P, right mindfulness is the 4 satipatthanas and right concentration is the 4 jhanas.

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness.

"And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration."
-SN 45.8
Peace,
James
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:53 am

Mkoll wrote:In the strict sense in regards to the N8P, right mindfulness is the 4 satipatthanas and right concentration is the 4 jhanas.


Yes, that's my understanding.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:55 am

fivebells wrote:Mindfulness means keeping something in mind, e.g., to remember to rest attention on the breath in some way and bring it back when it wanders. Concentration means attending specifically to some object such as the breath.


I'm not sure I see the distinction here.
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby chownah » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:23 am

Maybe mindfulness is like grabbing ahold of something and not letting go and concentration is like closely examining the thing you are grabbing ahold of.
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:04 pm

bodom wrote:See the chapter Mindfulness Versus Concentration in his book Mindfulness in Plain English from whixh thisa quote is taken:

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe14.html


That's interesting. Another quote is: "Mindfulness picks the objects of attention, and notices when the attention has gone astray. Concentration does the actual work of holding the attention steady on that chosen object."
But this raises a couple of questions for me:
1. In anapanasati it seems like maintaining mindfulness of the breath is the means of developing concentration - so it's a bit chicken-and-egg?
2. How does "concentration" as described here relate to samma-samadhi in terms of the 4 jhanas?
Well, oi dunno...
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Re: Right mindfullness vs Right concentration

Postby imagemarie » Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:41 pm

daverupa wrote:The two terms can be unpacked a little:

sammasati & sammasamadhi

This 'samma' doesn't really mean 'right', it means 'integrous' in the sense that sati and samadhi and the other six aspects of the Path are integrated with one another, each one supporting the later ones as well as supporting the current Path progress one is experiencing.

So, samma-sati is a mindfulness that's integrated with, among other things, samma-vayama, 'integrous effort' (right effort, otherwise).

So with integrated effort tasking us with generating and increasing wholesome states while reducing and eliminating unwholesome states, it takes integrated mindfulness to note which aspect of effort is called for in any actual case, and it takes integrated composure (samadhi, though often rendered 'concentration' as you have it) to hardwire these changes into citta (to be very brief).

Another thing this is all integrated with is samma-sankappa, integrous ('right') intention, specifically renunciation. This is the idea that the five physical senses are set aside as unsavory inputs, and this is what generates seclusion from sensuality, a significant part of samma-samadhi.

So these terms aren't so much strict categories as they are different colors on a color wheel, with blending and mutual reinforcement between these Path factors. In this way they are perhaps best seen as facets of practice, instead of separate modules of practice.

:heart:


:goodpost: This is very helpful. Thank-you.

:anjali:
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