Zen, Dogen and being put off...

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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Postby Alex123 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:14 am

waterchan wrote:His reasoning went along the lines of: once you reach enlightenment, you find that there's no self, and so whatever action you commit, ethically pure or not, is not yours.

Without delusion of self, and hindrances, one would NOT be interested in going out of ordinary way to do terrible things. It seems to me that those horrible actions do involve lots of hindrances and attachment to self and belief in self's possessions.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Postby Alex123 » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:05 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:If you are a theravadan and want some real hardcore chan you dont have to look very far
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... eleft.html

Wow. Very interesting!

In 1979, Luang Pu went to Chantaburi to rest and to visit with Ajaan Somchai. On that occasion, a senior monk from Bangkok — Phra Dhammavaralankan of Wat Buppharam, the ecclesiastical head of the southern region of the country — was also there, practicing meditation in his old age, being only one year younger than Luang Pu. When he learned that Luang Pu was a meditation monk, he became interested and engaged Luang Pu in a long conversation on the results of meditation. He mentioned his responsibilities, saying that he had wasted a lot of his life engaged in study and administration work well into his old age. He discussed different points of meditation practice with Luang Pu, finally asking him, "Do you still have any anger?"

Luang Pu immediately answered,

"I do, but I don't pick it up."

When Luang Pu was undergoing treatment at Chulalongkorn Hospital in Bangkok, large numbers of people came to pay their respects and listen to his Dhamma. Mr. Bamrungsak Kongsuk was among those who were interested in the practice of meditation. He was a student of Ajaan Sanawng of Wat Sanghadana in Nonthaburi province, one of the strict meditation centers of our day and time. He broached the topic of the practice of the Dhamma by asking, "Luang Pu, how does one cut off anger?"

Luang Pu answered,

"There's nobody who cuts it off. There's only being aware of it in time. When you're aware of it in time, it disappears on its own."

Any comments? Is it possible that awakened person still experiences remnants of past perceptions and conditioned physical responses - but simply does not "pick it up" ?
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Postby Dan74 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:30 am

Very similar to what I heard Ajahn Sumedho teach. Also familiar from Zen teachers. So yes, as far as I was taught (with me, anger still arises and I do pick it up some of the time Image ).
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Postby Myotai » Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:41 pm

This is drying up a bit so here's some more kindle :stirthepot: More potential Wrong Speech herein...(not really) :thinking:

I agree with Anagarika to a certain extent. I only see inferential correlates between the 'original' teaches around Anapanasati and the Four Foundations for example and those as taught in Zen. There is a foundation common to all schools of Buddhism but then some seem to go Whooooosh launching off into another stratosphere!

I don't see Dogens take on the Dharma anywhere else in any other tradition, I mean not even a hint. The only possible parallel I can see is in something like Nichiren. So far as I know their's is a practice that sits some way off traditional Buddhism as taught in other schools. Its certainly not mainstream and would not be taught academically with an aim for students understanding of Buddhist Practice and beliefs per se - is that fair. Equally re Dogen, where did the Buddha suggest that we should have no aspirations for Nibbana...no agenda when sitting and that merely the act of sitting was sufficient. Dogen might well have offered a perfectly legitimate practice that has benefits for those who immerse themselves in it....just like Nichiren chanting.

But is it what the Buddha taught? I don't think so.
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Postby Alex123 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:03 am

Too often, Dogen maintains, dharmas (things) are taken to be static, hypostasized entities often having a quasi-metaphysical status. Actually, though, dharmas are more like experiential units or things-as-experienced. http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... sopher.htm

This fits well with canonical abhidhamma where dhammas are units of experience. It is later that dhammas became reified into some sort of atoms.

Also, "in the seen just the seen, in the heard just the heard..." instruction in Bahiya sutta does seem to suggest at some form of shikantaza.

The "he knows he is walking/sitting/standing/lying" teachings in satipatthana sutta may correlate with mindful "chopping wood, carrying water".

Not clinging to theories and doctrines is a common theme in Sutta Nipata chapters 4 and 5.
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: Zen, Dogen and being put off...

Postby beeblebrox » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:41 pm

Some quotes from Dogen's "Guidelines for Studying the Way" which I read recently:

Ancestor Nagarjuna said, "The mind that fully sees into the uncertain world of birth and death is called the thought of enlightenment." Thus if we maintain this mind, this mind can become the thought of enlightenment.

Indeed, when you understand the discontinuity the notion of self does not come into being, ideas of name and gain do not arise. Fearing the swift passage of the sunlight, practice the way as though saving your head from fire. Reflecting on this ephemeral life, make endeavor in the manner of Buddha raising his foot.

Try to reflect on the mind concerned only with your own gain. Does this one thought blend with the nature and attributes of the three thousand realms? Does this one thought realize the dharma gate of being unborn? There is only the deluded thought of greed for name and love of gain. There is nothing which could be taken as the thought of enlightenment.

The thought of enlightenment, as was mentioned, is the mind which sees into impermanence. This is most fundamental, and not at all the same as the mind pointed to by confused people.

Just forget yourself for now and practice inwardly—this is one with the thought of enlightenment. We see that the sixty-two views are based on self. So when a notion of self arises, sit quietly and contemplate it. Is there a real basis inside or outside your body now? Your body with hair and skin is just inherited from your father and mother. From beginning to end a drop of blood or lymph is empty. So none of these are the self. What about mind, thought, awareness, and knowledge? Or the breath going in and out, which ties a lifetime together: what is it after all? None of these are the self either. How could you be attached to any of them? Deluded people are attached to them. Enlightened people are free of them.

You figure there is self where there is no self. You attach to birth where there is no birth. You do not practice the buddha way, which should be practiced. You do not cut off the worldly mind, which should be cut off. Avoiding the true teaching and pursuing the groundless teaching, how could you not be mistaken?

You should know that arousing practice in the midst of delusion, you attain realization before you recognize it. At this time you first know that the raft of discourse is like yesterday’s dream, and you finally cut off your old understanding bound up in the vines and serpents of words. This is not made to happen by Buddha, but is accomplished by your all-encompassing effort.

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