Buddhists are losers?

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LXNDR
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby LXNDR » Fri Jun 20, 2014 8:42 am

No_Mind wrote:Buddha never prohibited acquiring wealth while Jesus specifically forbade it.


i have a feeling that there lots of politics were going on around the Sangha, by dismissing wealth and deeming it a hindrance the Buddha most likely would put off the Sangha wealthy sponsors

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby No_Mind » Fri Jun 20, 2014 10:55 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
No_Mind wrote:.....
It is not a fair statement to make (whoever said it originally, not RobertK). If you live up to all the teachings of Jesus then also there is a worldly price to pay for it.

(Jesus said to His disciples) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God - Matthew 19:24

Buddha never prohibited acquiring wealth while Jesus specifically forbade it.

No, he didn't.

An oft-misquoted passage in the Bible is usually given as "Money is the root of all evil."

It's not: the correct quotation reads "The LOVE of Money, is the root of all evil."

There is nothing wrong with wealth; Jesus just warned against greed and excessive attachment to wealth. Proper use and dissemination of wealth, for the good of others, is recommended and lauded however.

Precisely as it is in Buddhism.


I will not argue the obvious

And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Matthew 19:24

And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! "For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Luke 18:25

The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." Mark 10:25

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. Luke 16:13


All the gospels agree Jesus gave pretty strong disincentive to becoming wealthy. There is a nil probability for a rich man to enter heaven (since there is nil probability for a camel to pass through eye of a needle). How much more clearly do you need him to spell it out?

I did not use any oft misquoted Bible message. If you think I robbed Paul, you cannot convict me for someone stealing from Peter. If you want to convict me then do so on basis of what I wrote (Matthew 19:24, Luke 18:25, Mark 10:25, Luke 16:13) not what some dimwit misquoted somewhere. I cannot be held responsible for who misquotes what in this whole wide world.
Last edited by No_Mind on Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:22 am

No. Nowhere does Jesus condemn the state of being wealthy.
he merely states it is hard for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven, because he is attached to his wealth.

Let us see the quotation incontext of jesus' full teaching, shall we?
Matthew, Chapter 19: 16 - 30
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."

Christ does not condemn anyone for being wealthy.
He condemns them for not being able to detach from their wealth.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby No_Mind » Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:33 am

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:No. Nowhere does Jesus condemn the state of being wealthy.
he merely states it is hard for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven, because he is attached to his wealth.


He is preaching that a wealthy man cannot enter heaven. This is a pretty obvious warning from him - do not try to become rich. What else do you want him to say - I will knock you on the head with a baseball bat if you become rich!!

Note - while you were writing this post I added Luke 16:13 to my post above.
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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Jun 20, 2014 12:04 pm

Luke 16:13

13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”


Which makes my point exactly.

To serve God, you must abandon riches. But that does not imply that Money is bad...

Money is extremely necessary, to be honest...
All renunciates take a vow of poverty, no matter whether it is in Christianity or Buddhism.

But what do you think enables Monasteries, convents and temples to keep thriving?

Mother Teresa did a stirling job looking after so many of India's social rejects and outcasts.

But she badgered politicians and the wealthy, mercilessly, for funds, donations and contributions....

And I would add, I studied the Bible extensively, because I had many, many years ago, the intention of ordaining....

(Edit note: Biblical quotation added to save people having to look it up! )
Last edited by TheNoBSBuddhist on Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:29 pm

LXNDR wrote:i have a feeling that there lots of politics were going on around the Sangha, by dismissing wealth and deeming it a hindrance the Buddha most likely would put off the Sangha wealthy sponsors


Quite the contrary, actually. The Buddha regularly met with kings and wealthy people, accepting their gifts of generosity of land and buildings for the Sangha. And he personally taught the Dhamma to them.

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby LXNDR » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:12 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
LXNDR wrote:i have a feeling that there lots of politics were going on around the Sangha, by dismissing wealth and deeming it a hindrance the Buddha most likely would put off the Sangha wealthy sponsors


Quite the contrary, actually. The Buddha regularly met with kings and wealthy people, accepting their gifts of generosity of land and buildings for the Sangha. And he personally taught the Dhamma to them.


so i guess we agree on that one :)

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby David N. Snyder » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:14 pm

LXNDR wrote:so i guess we agree on that one :)


I don't think so. I am saying the Buddha regularly met with kings and wealthy people and never scolded them for being a monarch or having wealth and in fact praised wealth rightly gained along with generosity.

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:24 pm

LXNDR wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
LXNDR wrote:then even more so, being predestined he could have stayed at home an gain the same fruit, yet he quitted, so if a destined person needed a lifestyle of a renunciate to fulfill his destiny, so much more a regular worldling
Speculation without solid evidence.


just common sense, when you see an athlete working out daily full time you don't think you can repeat his accomplishments going to a gym once a week after a beer

that may sound maximalist, and it indeed is :)
There's a big difference between becoming a Buddha on one's own and following the teachings of the Buddha. Your comparison is null.

LXNDR wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
LXNDR wrote:in the Buddha time it would normally happen due to the lay person direct contact with him, without such luxury the chances are minimal

Speculation without solid evidence.


i don't recall reading a sutta with a description of a lay person attaining a noble level without having interacted with the Buddha first, could be that i haven't yet come across one
More speculation.

LXNDR wrote:
Mkoll wrote:If you want to hold the view that you can't attain to stream-entry as a householder, that's your prerogative. My point to you is that attitude is self-defeating. It gives you an excuse not to practice as diligently as you could. If you want to become a doctor but you believe it's too hard to attain, then how well do you think you'll do in school?


not necessarily self-defeating, i just don't expect much from my practice
I get a very different impression from your words: one of negativity and cynicism. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the impression that I get, sorry.
Peace,
James

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby LXNDR » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:29 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
LXNDR wrote:so i guess we agree on that one :)


I don't think so. I am saying the Buddha regularly met with kings and wealthy people and never scolded them for being a monarch or having wealth and in fact praised wealth rightly gained along with generosity.


i'm sorry i must have worded it poorly

by dismissing wealth and deeming it a hindrance the Buddha most likely would HAVE put off the Sangha wealthy sponsors


that's exactly the reason why he didn't scold them, so they don't turn away from him and the Order, but it's even not about scolding, there's nothing wrong in being rich

as i see it the only valid reason for dismissing wealth by the Buddha would be its incompatibility with effective practice of the Dhamma, he himself gave up wealth

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby LXNDR » Fri Jun 20, 2014 5:32 pm

Mkoll wrote:I get a very different impression from your words: one of negativity and cynicism. I hope I'm wrong, but that's the impression that I get, sorry.


no problem, impression is just that, an impression

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby Awakened_Angel » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:25 am

robertk wrote:I saw this on another thread.

For all practical intents and purposes, being a Buddhist means that one will quite likely be a loser in worldly terms. Not necessarily a doormat, but quite likely a loser.


buddha say to conquer a thousand battle is incomparable to conquer own self.. I didnt know what it mean

in meditation I experience this "becoming" or bhavana(if I am not mistaken). where the craving takes on and the "consciousness" wears a fleeting thought or feeling that take it as its own.

from a observer mind observing the fleeting thought(mano) the craving "wear" the thought and the self become the thought.

e.g. a angy thought arise, I aware of the thought then craving grab and I become angry person.

after this experience, which I "notice" becoming phenomenon, during in daily life, where akusala vedana or thought arise, I could sense it bubbling in my mind or heart, but never become.

thus same for my lust, craving, sensual peleasure etc.... which I was at home accompanying family and enjoying time and meditaton. my friends make fun and say I was like living in prison without going out to have fun, club, drink etc.

from dhamma study n meditation, feel freerer and see satisfying sensual pleasure is a great burden. you work so hard to satisfy your sensual desire.

thus, buddhist are winners who overcome their ownself

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Re: Buddhists are losers?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:04 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
LXNDR wrote:so i guess we agree on that one :)


I don't think so. I am saying the Buddha regularly met with kings and wealthy people and never scolded them for being a monarch or having wealth and in fact praised wealth rightly gained along with generosity.


Yes, the Buddha seems to have had a very pragmatic approach.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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