W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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pulga
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:"Protestant Buddhism" is not come to Sri Lanka, it arose there as a result of "Traditional Buddhism" near demise at the hands of Christian missionizing and oppresion under the Dutch and British rules.
Whoever said Protestant Buddhism came to Sri Lanka? It came from the challenge the Christians posed to it. But in the process of defending itself it compromised many of its traditional beliefs and attitudes. In a sense it became more Christianlike and more modern. Protestant Buddhism is not traditional Buddhism.

It's noteworthy that in Pandura it was the nature of God -- not whether he existed or not -- that was one of the topics up for debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migettuwat ... anda_Thera
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Protestant Buddhism" did not come to Sri Lanka, it arose there as a result of "Traditional Buddhism" near demise at the hands of Christian missionizing and oppresion under the Dutch and British rules.
Whoever said Protestant Buddhism came to Sri Lanka? It came from the challenge the Christians posed to it. But in the process of defending itself it compromised many of its traditional beliefs and attitudes. In a sense it became more Christianlike and more modern. Protestant Buddhism is not traditional Buddhism.
I simply misread your convoluted sentence.
It's noteworthy that in Pandura it was the nature of God -- not whether he existed or not -- that was one of the topics up for debate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migettuwat ... anda_Thera
Yes, and your point is?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:I simply misread your convoluted sentence.
Whoever said Protestant Buddhism came to Sri Lanka? It came from the challenge the Christians posed to traditional Sinhala Buddhism. But in the process of defending themselves the Sinhala (especially those educated in English} compromised many of their traditional beliefs and attitudes. In a sense they became more Christianlike and more modern. Protestant Buddhism is not traditional Buddhism.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I simply misread your convoluted sentence.
Whoever said Protestant Buddhism came to Sri Lanka? It came from the challenge the Christians posed to traditional Sinhala Buddhism. But in the process of defending themselves the Sinhala (especially those educated in English} compromised many of their traditional beliefs and attitudes. In a sense they became more Christianlike and more modern. Protestant Buddhism is not traditional Buddhism.
As I said, I simply misread your convoluted sentence. Also, do not forget to mention the vital role the "White Buddhists" played in this, as well as Theosophy. I am not so sure the Protestant Buddhism is totally a bad thing.
it [traditional Buddhism] is a far cry from atheism which is one of the reasons why modernists have come to reject it, or at the very least
And by this you mean?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:And by this you mean?
Given that in the Panadura Debate the existence of God wasn't open to debate -- but rather whether he created the universe and is eternal -- I don't think Ven. Gunananda Thera would have considered himself an atheist. Traditional Sinhala Buddhism holds Visnu to be the Supreme Deity -- Lord of the Gods -- the protector of their religion and their homeland. He holds sway over the devas and yakshas that play a role in their lives. While he may not have created them and he is destined to pass away, their belief in him constitutes a level of theism that can't be dismissed as atheistic.

In the Suttas one gets a sense of this same attitude. I think that traditional Sinhala Buddhism is probably closer to the spirit of the Pali Suttas than the modernists who tend to read a hard atheism into the Buddha's Teaching.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And by this you mean?
Given that in the Panadura Debate the existence of God wasn't open to debate -- but rather whether he created the universe and is eternal -- I don't think Ven. Gunananda Thera would have considered himself an atheist. Traditional Sinhala Buddhism holds Visnu to be the Supreme Deity -- Lord of the Gods -- the protector of their religion and their homeland. He holds sway over the devas and yakshas that play a role in their lives. While he may not have created them and he is destined to pass away, their belief in him constitutes a level of theism that can't be dismissed as atheistic.

In the Suttas one gets a sense of this same attitude. I think that traditional Sinhala Buddhism is probably closer to the spirit of the Pali Suttas than the modernists who tend to read a hard atheism into the Buddha's Teaching.
Interesting. Where in the suttas is Vishnu mentioned? Again, it depends upon what one means by atheist. The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos finds no support in the suttas. If anything, it is rejected. Certainly, the devas are part of the world view of the Buddha. To me that is not a problem.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:Interesting. Where in the suttas is Vishnu mentioned? Again, it depends upon what one means by atheist. The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos finds no support in the suttas. If anything, it is rejected. Certainly, the devas are part of the world view of the Buddha. To me that is not a problem.
Visnu is identified with the indigenous deity Upulvan who in the Mahavamsa was appointed by Sakka (Indra) to look after the Sinhala and their religion. Over time however the role of Sakka has diminished to the point that Visnu is regarded as supreme. My point is that this sort of divine hierarchy does appear in the Suttas, and it probably affected the early followers of the Buddha in much the same way as it affects the Sinhala of today who find themselves on the other side of Western culture.

I completely agree with you that the Buddha denied any sort of transcendent, independent being: it's the contingency of transcendence that is the essence of the teaching of aniccata. But I think it might be better to follow Ven. Ñanavira's advise and to regard the question as treacherous: it's best not to be bullied into a categorical answer. For those with a theological bent God is much like the world: his inexistence is inconceivable.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Interesting. Where in the suttas is Vishnu mentioned? Again, it depends upon what one means by atheist. The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, permanent, independent, unique cause of the cosmos finds no support in the suttas. If anything, it is rejected. Certainly, the devas are part of the world view of the Buddha. To me that is not a problem.
Visnu is identified with the indigenous deity Upulvan who in the Mahavamsa was appointed by Sakka (Indra) to look after the Sinhala and their religion. Over time however the role of Sakka has diminished to the point that Visnu is regarded as supreme. My point is that this sort of divine hierarchy does appear in the Suttas, and it probably affected the early followers of the Buddha in much the same way as it affects the Sinhala of today who find themselves on the other side of Western culture.
In other words, there is no Vishnu in the suttas.
I completely agree with you that the Buddha denied any sort of transcendent, independent being: it's the contingency of transcendence that is the essence of the teaching of aniccata. But I think it might be better to follow Ven. Ñanavira's advise and to regard the question as treacherous: it's best not to be bullied into a categorical answer. For those with a theological bent God is much like the world: his inexistence is inconceivable.
No one is bullying anyone about what the suttas say. I don't find Nanavira particularly convincing on this. Interestingly the Buddha addressed some of critiques to those "with a theological bent."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:In other words, there is no Vishnu in the suttas.
Sakka is king of the gods in the Suttas -- Sakko devānaṃ indo D I.216.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:In other words, there is no Vishnu in the suttas.
Sakka is king of the gods in the Suttas -- Sakko devānaṃ indo D I.216.
But show me where in the suttas Vishnu is mentioned by that name. He is not. The gods have an importance for crops and such things, but none for liberation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pulga
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by pulga »

tiltbillings wrote:But show me where in the suttas Vishnu is mentioned by that name. He is not.
Does it really matter? The contemporaries of the Buddha regarded Sakka as king of the gods, the Sinhala give that role to Visnu. You are correct that both are worldly, but if you're at all familiar with traditional Indians you'd have to concede that in their worldly affairs their dependence on the divine and the demoniacal goes well beyond their concern over crops.

As for the existence of God:
Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One
would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed,
clung to and considered truth by others. [668]

Since they have already seen this dart [669]
to which people cling and adhere,
saying “I know, I see, it is just so,”
the Tathāgatas cling to nothing. AN 4.24
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=19658
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by tiltbillings »

This seems to be your point:
I think that traditional Sinhala Buddhism is probably closer to the spirit of the Pali Suttas than the modernists who tend to read a hard atheism into the Buddha's Teaching.
And by "hard atheism" you mean?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
vishuroshan
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by vishuroshan »

Dear Friends,

buddha came to this world to teach prestine dhamma path. those who work little will go to heaven. others who have completed reach NIBBANA. and in very few suttas, you will fin that buddha has given discourses about DEVAS and their life span and facilities..etc. but it does nt mean that he came to send people to heaven or Brahma world. everyone cannot understand this dhamma. so he must have adviced those people to go to higher realms rather than going down to hell. please visit the following link. you can download the PDF.

http://www.pathtonibbana.com
vishuroshan
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by vishuroshan »

kindly note that BUDDHA could not save DEVADATTA. he did evil deeds. buddha didnt go to him and advice him.
barcsimalsi
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh

Post by barcsimalsi »

vishuroshan wrote:kindly note that BUDDHA could not save DEVADATTA. he did evil deeds. buddha didnt go to him and advice him.
Now this sounds like fatalism.
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