I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it's a sign of ungratitude when people don't just adopt what they are told? Can't you be grateful for being introduced to the dhamma, and grateful for being taught it, but still examine things using your own judgement?binocular wrote:Really??Aloka wrote:Which westerners are you talking about, binocular? Can you be more specific? I've never spoken to anyone with that attitude.
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to have a sense of deep gratitude for being taught the Dhamma?
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to just adopt whatever they are told in the name of the Dhamma?
W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dhamma
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Will you please unpack this? Be precise.binocular wrote:holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
- tiltbillings
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Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Oh, my goodness. You make a statement: ""Relying on oneself" does require a belief in some kind of relevant selfhood, though. And if this selfhood is to be relevant, then by implication, it has to be permanent." A question is asked about it, as away of trying understand what is being said: "Has to be permanent? Based on what? Does this implicated permanent selfhood change?" And you proceed to willfully dodge giving a straightforward response.binocular wrote:You know something? Suit yourself.tiltbillings wrote:Another dodge. Answer my questions, and I'll be delighted to answer yours.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Totally agree, lol !daverupa wrote:Will you please unpack this? Be precise.binocular wrote:holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Yes I'd say that people Ive spoken to in the UK have a lot of gratitude for being taught the Dhamma. I don't speculate about Westerners in general.binocular wrote:Really??Aloka wrote:Which westerners are you talking about, binocular? Can you be more specific? I've never spoken to anyone with that attitude.
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to have a sense of deep gratitude for being taught the Dhamma?
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to just adopt whatever they are told in the name of the Dhamma?
As far as 'westerners' adopting whatever they are told - I've no idea - and I'm not really interested.
Your original comment I responded to was:
.binocular wrote:Among some Westerners, there is also a sense of entitlement about the Dhamma - taking the Dhamma for granted, thinking that we're owed to get the Dhamma
- Goofaholix
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- Location: New Zealand
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
If you are using the term "spiritual materialism" as defined by Chogram Trungpa then presumably you don't understand it as your post doesn't make sense. If you are using a different definition then it's only serving to muddy the waters, particularly as you won't advise where you go the definition from or what the definition is.binocular wrote:That's what I said:
I agree, nothing is sacrosanct, though a lot of things can be a waste of time. But then I've found the vast majority of western Buddhists (except a vocal minority of internet based ones I guess) exhibit the opposite of the behaviour you appear to be accusing them of.binocular wrote: When this quest for the "truth" is accompanied by holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them, then that's not much of a quest for the truth. Or is it ...
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Problems emerge when people do their own thing (to which they are of course entitled), but nevertheless call it Buddhism, promulgate it in the name of Buddhism, and expect that others acknowledge it as Buddhism.Feathers wrote:I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that it's a sign of ungratitude when people don't just adopt what they are told? Can't you be grateful for being introduced to the dhamma, and grateful for being taught it, but still examine things using your own judgement?
Part of the problem here seems to be that we mean different things by "Western(er)."Aloka wrote:Yes I'd say that people Ive spoken to in the UK have a lot of gratitude for being taught the Dhamma. I don't speculate about Westerners in general.
Some mean the term geographically, referring to people from Europe and the US, and Australia, NZ.
Some mean the term culturally, referring to that characteristic brand of consumerist thinking and being.
I mean "Western(er)" primarily in the cultural sense. So some people who were born and live in Asia can well be Westerners by culture, when they incline themselves to the "American Way."
And there is no problem with my comment, given the underlined word.Your original comment I responded to was:binocular wrote:Among some Westerners, there is also a sense of entitlement about the Dhamma - taking the Dhamma for granted, thinking that we're owed to get the Dhamma
Modern science being a prime example, in how it shuns the philosophy of science.daverupa wrote:Will you please unpack this? Be precise.binocular wrote:holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
I asked you which westerners you were talking about and to be more specific ....and you avoided that and asked me these 2 questions instead.....binocular wrote:And there is no problem with my comment, given the underlined word.
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to have a sense of deep gratitude for being taught the Dhamma?
You'd say it is very common for Westerners to just adopt whatever they are told in the name of the Dhamma?
.
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?binocular wrote:I mean "Western(er)" primarily in the cultural sense. So some people who were born and live in Asia can well be Westerners by culture, when they incline themselves to the "American Way."
.
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
And I clarified above that we appear to mean different things by the term "Western(er)".Aloka wrote:I asked you which westerners you were talking about and to be more specific ....and you avoided that and asked me these 2 questions instead.....
I'm exploring a particular cultural type as such (and so appears to be the OP), you seem to think in geographical terms and names of particular people.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
You've never heard of Asian Buddhists who don't believe in karma and rebirth?Aloka wrote:So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Please answer my question.binocular wrote:You've never heard of Asian Buddhists who don't believe in karma and rebirth?Aloka wrote:So whereabouts in Asia have you met these people involved with the Dhamma who you are refering to as "westerners" in your previous posts?
.
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
But it doesn't. Only modern scientists could do that, and they offer a mixed response, not the unilateral shunning you describe. Your prime example is no example at all.binocular wrote:Modern science being a prime example, in how it shuns the philosophy of science.daverupa wrote:Will you please unpack this? Be precise.binocular wrote:holding some epistemological propositions as sacrosanct, tabooing them
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
Um, I'm wondering how Asian Buddhists who don't believe in kamma, or who have the temerity to, y'know, be consumerists whatever that means, would feel about being labelled 'westerners'??? They can't think critically about their religion without somehow switching cultures? They can't enjoy shoe shopping and still consider themselves Thai? I don't think this is what you meant, but it seems the implications of this line of thought could be that Asian Buddhists can't take a critical approach to Buddhism without somehow being 'untrue' to their national/racial identity?
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: W. Buddhism is based more on Atheism-materialism than Dh
This criticism, to which your are responding and to which many of us are trying to respond to here, of "western Buddhism" and all is remarkably amorphous and out of focus, to the point of being meaningless.Feathers wrote:Um, I'm wondering how Asian Buddhists who don't believe in kamma, or who have the temerity to, y'know, be consumerists whatever that means, would feel about being labelled 'westerners'??? They can't think critically about their religion without somehow switching cultures? They can't enjoy shoe shopping and still consider themselves Thai? I don't think this is what you meant, but it seems the implications of this line of thought could be that Asian Buddhists can't take a critical approach to Buddhism without somehow being 'untrue' to their national/racial identity?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723