The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dan74
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dan74 »

PeterB wrote:To Japan Tibet and China.. :smile:
Whew! Luckily Korea escaped this evil scourge...

PS We always did know that ours was the maha of the mahayana!

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PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Yes Korea had to make do with Sun M. Moon.
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Dan74
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Dan74 »

PeterB wrote:Yes Korea had to make do with Sun M. Moon.
Luckily for us, he is only the Messiah and the Second Coming of Christ, rather than atman in drag! :D
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Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:To Japan Tibet and China.. :smile:
Hmm... evasive.

I challenge you to find where Nagarjuna says this. What you're reacting to is either the misunderstanding or misuse of Nagarjuna or subsequent Atman-like extrapolations.

BTW: Holding the view of Buddha or Nirvana as some sort of transcendental metaphysical essence (ie Atman) is not the orthodox Mahayana view. A view like this is expressed in a group of sutras called the Tathagatagarbha sutras. And it is an interpretation held by some of the Yogacara School. Even in the Lankavatara Sutra (one of the Tathagathagarbha sutras) it is explained that the Tathagathagarbha (Buddha Embryo) doctrine is not about an Atman, but is a skillful method to explain egolessness (Anatta) in positive terms to avoid causing fear in those who misunderstand it. The Buddha Nature doctrine is generally interpreted as a positive expression of Sunyata/Anatta.

There is a variety of interpretations, and I agree that some of these developments are unfortunate, however the notion of Buddha or Buddha Nature as some sort of cosmic Atman is certinly not found in Nagarjuna, who spoke almost exclusively in rational, negative terms. Far from speaking in such metaphysical, essentialist terms, if early Buddha was open to being misunderstood as nihilistic, then Nagarjuna was perhaps even more so - although this would be a misunderstanding of both of them. It may have been to address such nihilistic misunderstandings that the Tathagatagarbha doctrines appeared. To much medicine becomes a poison in itself unfortunately.
Last edited by Shonin on Tue May 25, 2010 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

As you edited your post Shonin the resulting post may well look evasive, rather than the joke it quite clearly was in the context of your unedited post.
As to "challenges"....... please .... :roll:

I really dont care what Nagarjuna says. I am only interested in a positive promotion of the Theravada..
And there is no Buddhadhatu in the Tripitaka.
Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

You did ask:
Shonin wrote: Nagarjuna made the exact opposite point repeatedly.
PeterB wrote:Tell me more about the "exact opposite point " Shonin.
You cannot support this assertion because it is not accurate:
PeterB wrote:In reality of course what [Nagarjuna] did was to go back and drag in Atman. Dust it off, give it a new suit and name badge and send it scampering on its way..
You have a habit of making snipes at Nagarjuna, calling him an essentialist and so on. And while your objections to some Mahayana thought is on target, it isn't accurate with regards to Nagarjuna nor to the concept of Sunyata. As the article I posted stated, Nagarjuna is quite consistent with the Nikayas.
PeterB wrote:there is no Buddhadhatu in the Tripitaka.
There is no Buddhadhatu in Nagarjuna either.

If you don't want to discuss Nagarjuna then the simple solution is to avoid misrepresenting him :)
Last edited by Shonin on Tue May 25, 2010 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Righty-ho.
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Again with the backwards editing.
I dont accept that I have misrepresented Nagarjuna.
The reason that I am not going to discuss that is that this is the discovering Theravada Forum.
If I wanted to discuss mahayana doctrine I would do so on a Mahayana Forum.
I joined a Theravada forum in part because I was fed up to the back teeth with Nagarjuna..
Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

You responded as I edited.

As I said, if you don't want a response about Nagarjuna you might want to steer clear of inaccurate statements like:
In reality of course what [Nagarjuna] did was to go back and drag in Atman. Dust it off, give it a new suit and name badge and send it scampering on its way..
Anyway, I don't think there's anything left to discuss here.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

Did I say that...? Cor spot on. Sometimes I amaze myself. :lol:
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Aloka
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Aloka »

PeterB wrote:.
I joined a Theravada forum in part because I was fed up to the back teeth with Nagarjuna..
Me too ! :toast:




.
PeterB
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by PeterB »

:toast:


Now I wonder what goddess is up to... ;)
beeblebrox
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by beeblebrox »

Nagarjuna's In Praise of the Dharmadhatu - not sure if it's relevant to the debate in here.
Shonin
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by Shonin »

Gosh - I was unaware of this piece. Looks like I must retract that point. However, I will say that I find it difficult to imagine that this was writen by the same author as the sublime Mulamadhyamakakarika.
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Re: The Bodhisattva Ideal in Theravada

Post by beeblebrox »

I came across that a few months ago, from someone who used this on Twitter to prove beyond doubt that Nagarjuna wasn't a nihilist (the way that some people might interpret his middle way stuff). At first, I thought that this was an excellent way of showing that Buddhism was neither annhilitationist nor eternalist.

I thought that it was also an inspiring piece of poetry that can be very helpful to one's own practice, but then I eventually noticed that this guy (on Twitter) always seemed like he would try to find some excuses to put in an eternalist bias to what the Buddha taught. He would always find stuff related to that, (even in the Nikayas).

His own interpretation of the "Luminous Mind", turning oneself away from the Samsara to the "immortal element", etc. etc. One of the things that he would say is that the impermanence only applies to the five aggregates... beyond that, it's eternal and undying.

I tried to debate with him about these, but my knowledge of Buddhism didn't match with his, unfortunately (it seems like he's been studying this for like 30 or 40 years). :tongue: So, that is one of the reasons why I'm here on this forum (and started to read the Nikayas)... to get to the bottom of this, get some fundamentals under my belt, so that I can debate (or more like correct some mistaken ideas about what this path is really about) more effectively in the future.

So, it seems like one of the problems with this piece is that some people can interpret it as something eternalist, like this guy apparently did. Maybe this was why Nagarjuna wrote one of each. :tongue: Sorry if this is way off-topic for the thread, guys.
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