Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby boris » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:12 pm

suttametta wrote: A faith follower is the lowest level of a Buddha follower.


In the Suttas, too, we find something of this distinction between those sekhas who are dittthipatta (“attained-through-view”) and those who are saddhāvimutta (“released-through-faith”). The former have heard the Buddha’s Teaching, reflected on it, and ac­cepted it after considering the ultimate principles on which it is based. The latter have heard the Teaching and reflected on it (as before), but instead of seeking its first principles, have accepted it because it in­spires them with trust and confidence. Both of them have practised the Teaching, and both have attained to sotāpatti or beyond, but one puts pattā foremost, and the other saddhā. But there is also a third kind of sekha, the kāyasakkhi (“body-witness”), who is quite without any corresponding, category in Western philoso­phy: he is one who puts samādhi foremost—he develops mental concentration and gets all the jhānas, and needs not so much pattā or saddhā. In AN 3:21/A I 118-20 the Buddha is asked which of these three is the best, but he declines to discriminate between them, saying that any one of them may outdistance the other two and ar­rive first at the final goal.


http://nanavira.org/index.php/component ... c157424766
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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:09 pm

boris wrote:
suttametta wrote: A faith follower is the lowest level of a Buddha follower.


In the Suttas, too, we find something of this distinction between those sekhas who are dittthipatta (“attained-through-view”) and those who are saddhāvimutta (“released-through-faith”). The former have heard the Buddha’s Teaching, reflected on it, and ac­cepted it after considering the ultimate principles on which it is based. The latter have heard the Teaching and reflected on it (as before), but instead of seeking its first principles, have accepted it because it in­spires them with trust and confidence. Both of them have practised the Teaching, and both have attained to sotāpatti or beyond, but one puts pattā foremost, and the other saddhā. But there is also a third kind of sekha, the kāyasakkhi (“body-witness”), who is quite without any corresponding, category in Western philoso­phy: he is one who puts samādhi foremost—he develops mental concentration and gets all the jhānas, and needs not so much pattā or saddhā. In AN 3:21/A I 118-20 the Buddha is asked which of these three is the best, but he declines to discriminate between them, saying that any one of them may outdistance the other two and ar­rive first at the final goal.


http://nanavira.org/index.php/component ... c157424766


Show me an example in the sutras, in the words of the buddha that a faith follower attained arahantship through just faith in the three jewels. It's impossible without all 37 factors anyone will be enlightened... Bahiya received the instructions which are the quickest path to enlightenment...

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Babadhari » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:39 pm

suttametta wrote:
boris wrote:
suttametta wrote: A faith follower is the lowest level of a Buddha follower.


In the Suttas, too, we find something of this distinction between those sekhas who are dittthipatta (“attained-through-view”) and those who are saddhāvimutta (“released-through-faith”). The former have heard the Buddha’s Teaching, reflected on it, and ac­cepted it after considering the ultimate principles on which it is based. The latter have heard the Teaching and reflected on it (as before), but instead of seeking its first principles, have accepted it because it in­spires them with trust and confidence. Both of them have practised the Teaching, and both have attained to sotāpatti or beyond, but one puts pattā foremost, and the other saddhā. But there is also a third kind of sekha, the kāyasakkhi (“body-witness”), who is quite without any corresponding, category in Western philoso­phy: he is one who puts samādhi foremost—he develops mental concentration and gets all the jhānas, and needs not so much pattā or saddhā. In AN 3:21/A I 118-20 the Buddha is asked which of these three is the best, but he declines to discriminate between them, saying that any one of them may outdistance the other two and ar­rive first at the final goal.


http://nanavira.org/index.php/component ... c157424766


Show me an example in the sutras, in the words of the buddha that a faith follower attained arahantship through just faith in the three jewels. It's impossible without all 37 factors anyone will be enlightened... Bahiya received the instructions which are the quickest path to enlightenment...


it is said to be possible here
http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... ecture.pdf
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby boris » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:38 pm

suttametta wrote:Show me an example in the sutras, in the words of the buddha that a faith follower attained arahantship through just faith in the three jewels. It's impossible without all 37 factors anyone will be enlightened... Bahiya received the instructions which are the quickest path to enlightenment...


I say that faith is an important factor of practice not the only one. Limitation of food, limitation of sleep, night meditations, celibacy, renunciation, all these practices which lead to understanding are supported by faith. Some women are quite nice and of good character, why should one boder with celibacy? :smile: But without celibacy to realize nibbana now and here is impossible. But do notice that I don't know it is impossibe, I only belive in it, because Suttas stated it is so. Once one have such saddha, is much more easy to accept that one's belive that there is no difference between women and man is just nowdays superstition* and for stability of Sangha things should be exactly as they were established by the Buddha.

*Every chess player knows that. Mind of women works in different ways. You take for granted that your knowledge and understanding is enough to recognize some views of the Buddha as mistaken, but this is just your faith in yourself. There is another approach:

Cūlahatthipadopama Sutta:
'How does Master Vacchāyana conceive the monk Gotama's ability of understanding? He is wise, is he not?'
'Sir, who am I to know the monk Gotama's ability of understanding? One would surely have to be his equal to know the monk Gotama's ability of understanding.'
'Master Vacchāyana praises the monk Gotama with high praise indeed.'
'Sir, who am I to praise the monk Gotama? The monk Gotama is praised by the praised—as best among gods and men.'
(translation by the Ven. Ñānamoli)

You tell me I should prove that you are mistaken. But how can I do it? In fact we are on the same level of faith, we just belive in different things. You belive that Vinaya needs to be improved, I belive that everything should be as it is. So you are my friend in faith. But perhaps there is difference, while I know that I belive that there is no need to change vinaya, you seem to think, that you know and see that Lord Buddha was mistaken, and that changes in Vinaya will not have any bad effects on Sangha. It could be so, but the same is saying about himself the Lord Buddha, and my saddha is on his side, but of course I whish you good luck, you are owner of your action :smile:
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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Aloka » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:16 pm

suttametta wrote:
Show me an example in the sutras, in the words of the buddha that a faith follower attained arahantship through just faith in the three jewels. It's impossible without all 37 factors anyone will be enlightened... Bahiya received the instructions which are the quickest path to enlightenment...


I don't know of an example in the suttas of students of the Buddha becoming arahants just through faith in the 3 jewels, but in the Anatta- lakkhana Sutta (SN22.59)it says that 5 of his monks immmediately became arahants after listening to his talk.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.mend.html


:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby culaavuso » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:15 pm

Aloka wrote:I don't know of an example in the suttas of students of the Buddha becoming arahants just through faith in the 3 jewels, but in the Anatta- lakkhana Sutta it says that 5 of his monks immmediately became arahants after listening to his talk.


This wasn't just any five monks, this was the "group of five" with which the Buddha practiced before his awakening. There are earlier suttas about the interactions with this group of Bhikkhus. It seems to be implied that they went for refuge in the Buddha in MN 26
MN 26: Ariyapariyesana Sutta wrote:"When this was said, I replied to them, 'The Tathagata, monks, is not living luxuriously, has not strayed from his exertion, has not backslid into abundance. The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.'

A second time... A third time, the group of five monks said to me, 'By that practice, that conduct, that performance of austerities you did not attain any superior human states, any distinction in knowledge & vision worthy of a noble one. So how can you now — living luxuriously, straying from your exertion, backsliding into abundance — have attained any superior human states, any distinction in knowledge & vision worthy of a noble one?'

"When this was said, I replied to the group of five monks, 'Do you recall my ever having spoken in this way before?'

"'No, lord.'

"'The Tathagata, monks, is not living luxuriously, has not strayed from his exertion, has not backslid into abundance. The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.'

"And so I was able to convince them. I would teach two monks while three went for alms, and we six lived off what the three brought back from their alms round. Then I would teach three monks while two went for alms, and we six lived off what the two brought back from their alms round. Then the group of five monks — thus exhorted, thus instructed by me — being subject themselves to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeking the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, reached the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Being subject themselves to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, they reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in them: 'Unprovoked is our release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'


At a later point, one of them (Kondañña) attained the stream entry in SN 56.11
SN 56.11: Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta wrote:That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, there arose to Ven. Kondañña the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.


Only after this point did all five monks reach full release in SN 22.59
SN 22.59: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta wrote:"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the group of five monks, through not clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:36 pm

suttametta wrote:Yeah. Many people have this idea. My teacher and I are best friends. We eat lunch together at the cafe. We love each other like family. I am in awe of him anyway, because he is always reading my mind. Today without any delay he told me not to debate on religion forums when I have emotions or it will get out of control. I never mentioned I'm doing that...

How much do you love your teacher? Enough to take his advice?
:tongue:

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:57 pm

binocular wrote:
suttametta wrote:Yeah. Many people have this idea. My teacher and I are best friends. We eat lunch together at the cafe. We love each other like family. I am in awe of him anyway, because he is always reading my mind. Today without any delay he told me not to debate on religion forums when I have emotions or it will get out of control. I never mentioned I'm doing that...

How much do you love your teacher? Enough to take his advice?
:tongue:

I must.

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:20 pm

suttametta wrote:I must.

You must? Under threat of ...?

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:35 pm

binocular wrote:
suttametta wrote:I must.

You must? Under threat of ...?


Being a jerk

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby alan » Tue Feb 04, 2014 5:55 am

Seems that the enforcement of rules is what draws some people to religion. But what a sad way to live!

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:02 am

suttametta wrote:
binocular wrote:
suttametta wrote:I must.

You must? Under threat of ...?


Being a jerk
Probably the best reason in the world.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby binocular » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:12 am

Okay.

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:21 am

Aloka wrote:Yes I realise that you're expected to regard your teachers as "buddhas" as well as told all the past teachers of a lineage were enlightened.


Fair comment, but then do we assume that past teachers in the Theravada tradition were enlightened? It's a tricky question.
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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Mkoll » Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:30 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Aloka wrote:Yes I realise that you're expected to regard your teachers as "buddhas" as well as told all the past teachers of a lineage were enlightened.


Fair comment, but then do we assume that past teachers in the Theravada tradition were enlightened? It's a tricky question.

Well at the very least we must assume that the Buddha was enlightened. Theravada Buddhist practice hinges on this assumption.

Unless of course you're a secular Buddhist who believes the Buddha was a "human being, having lived within the cultural context of his time." (from their website)
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James

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:35 am

Mkoll wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Aloka wrote:Yes I realise that you're expected to regard your teachers as "buddhas" as well as told all the past teachers of a lineage were enlightened.


Fair comment, but then do we assume that past teachers in the Theravada tradition were enlightened? It's a tricky question.

Well at the very least we must assume that the Buddha was enlightened. Theravada Buddhist practice hinges on this assumption.


Sure. I was suggesting that our faith / confidence in particular teachers is probably quite subjective.
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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:37 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Fair comment, but then do we assume that past teachers in the Theravada tradition were enlightened? It's a tricky question.

Well at the very least we must assume that the Buddha was enlightened. Theravada Buddhist practice hinges on this assumption.


Sure. I was suggesting that our faith / confidence in particular teachers is probably quite subjective.


I'll tell you what the really tricky part is: when a teacher or person can demonstrate psychic powers in a very obvious way, you want to think this person must be enlightened, but this is just an ordinary siddhi. Knowing if someone really has enlightenment depends on if they can get you there... If one is not there, that question will forever linger, because it could be on you why you didn't get there... On the other hand when the teacher is super relaxed, compassionate, and joyful and makes others feel that way just being around him, it becomes pretty obvious the teacher is enlightened. It can take years before one can come to a final decision about these things. Selecting a teacher isn't like buying a car. It's more like a marriage where you live together first to decide if the two get along... That's just me. I don't jump to conclusions. I scrutinize. I've been with this teacher for six years, I'm slowly accepting his qualities are not a clever ruse... His patience, at this point, is legendary.

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Mkoll » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:41 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:Sure. I was suggesting that our faith / confidence in particular teachers is probably quite subjective.

Definitely.

suttametta wrote:On the other hand when the teacher is super relaxed, compassionate, and joyful and makes others feel that way just being around him, it becomes pretty obvious the teacher is enlightened.

But you can't know that unless you yourself have iddhi and can read his mind.

I'm not saying your teacher isn't fully enlightened, he may very well be. I'm only saying that you can't know for sure unless you have that particular iddhi.

:anjali:
Peace,
James

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby suttametta » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:19 am

Mkoll wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Sure. I was suggesting that our faith / confidence in particular teachers is probably quite subjective.

Definitely.

suttametta wrote:On the other hand when the teacher is super relaxed, compassionate, and joyful and makes others feel that way just being around him, it becomes pretty obvious the teacher is enlightened.

But you can't know that unless you yourself have iddhi and can read his mind.

I'm not saying your teacher isn't fully enlightened, he may very well be. I'm only saying that you can't know for sure unless you have that particular iddhi.

:anjali:


That's true. I don't need certainty to make conclusions. That's life for you. But one clear sign of an awakened person is he or she is very relaxed, does not give way to emotion, is controlled in their senses, is loving like a mother, is wise like a grandfather, is always happy, and helps others to give up bad actions. Then there are those intangible qualities, you just feel a certain way, an energy?

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Re: Anachronisms in Vinaya & whether a fresh start is due

Postby Aloka » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:19 am

But one clear sign of an awakened person is he or she is very relaxed, does not give way to emotion, is controlled in their senses, is loving like a mother, is wise like a grandfather, is always happy, and helps others to give up bad actions. Then there are those intangible qualities, you just feel a certain way, an energy?


If that's a description of someone who's enlightened, then I think I must have met a few non-Buddhist enlighted people in my life, particularly one or two schooteachers I've worked with.

:)
Last edited by Aloka on Thu Feb 06, 2014 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.


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