Dhp XXII

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Dhp XXII

Postby SamBodhi » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:17 pm

From Dhp XXII pt. 316 translated by Archarya Buddharakkhita -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.22.budd.html

316. Those who are ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should be ashamed of — upholding false views, they go to states of woe.


I am wondering if the converse to this is also true. That is to say, "Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe."

I do not think that this can necessarily be responsibly inferred from the quote above, but I would like to know if there is perhaps another text elsewhere that says something similar or would clarify this. I would also like to know of your opinions on reading the text I quoted.


with Metta,
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All outward-going knowing
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby Sam Vara » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:48 pm

"Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe."


Yes, there is something like this that claims right view (among other things) leads to good results:
"When a person has right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge, & right release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever vows, whatever determinations, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is agreeable, pleasing, charming, profitable, & easeful. Why is that? Because the view is auspicious.
AN 10 104

and

"When, friends, a noble disciple understands the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma, and has arrived at this true Dhamma.....

When a noble disciple has thus understood the unwholesome, the root of the unwholesome, the wholesome, and the root of the wholesome, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
MN 9
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby santa100 » Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:56 pm

Background stories to the Dhp can be found here: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=316
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby Kim OHara » Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:19 pm

SamBodhi wrote:From Dhp XXII pt. 316 translated by Archarya Buddharakkhita -
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.22.budd.html

316. Those who are ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should be ashamed of — upholding false views, they go to states of woe.


I am wondering if the converse to this is also true. That is to say, "Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe."

I do not think that this can necessarily be responsibly inferred from the quote above, but I would like to know if there is perhaps another text elsewhere that says something similar or would clarify this. I would also like to know of your opinions on reading the text I quoted.


with Metta,
SamBodhi

Hi, SamBodhi,
Your converse is grammatically accurate but fails when you look at it as a story ...
Joe is ashamed of not supporting his local football team and not ashamed of beating a dog to death. He will certainly go to states of woe.
Fred is ashamed of beating a dog to death and not ashamed of not supporting his local football team. His moral perception is fine ... except that he did beat a dog to death. Sounds like he will be heading for states of woe too, doesn't it?

Shame is valuable in that it can motivate future good behaviour but it doesn't avert the kamma of past behaviour.

:namaste:
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby chownah » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:12 am

:goodpost:
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby SamBodhi » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:36 am

Thank you all very much.


with Metta,
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unentangled knowing,
All outward-going knowing
cast aside."
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby rowboat » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:46 am

Shame is valuable in that it can motivate future good behaviour but it doesn't avert the kamma of past behaviour.


Further:

The Buddha points to two mental qualities as the underlying safeguards of morality, thus as the protectors of both the individual and society as a whole. These two qualities are called in Pali hiri and ottappa. Hiri is an innate sense of shame over moral transgression; ottappa is moral dread, fear of the results of wrongdoing. The Buddha calls these two states the bright guardians of the world (sukka lokapala). He gives them this designation because as long as these two states prevail in people's hearts the moral standards of the world remain intact, while when their influence wanes the human world falls into unabashed promiscuity and violence, becoming almost indistinguishable from the animal realm (Itiv. 42).


from Bhikkhu Bodhi's The Guardians of the World
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_23.html
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby perkele » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:24 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Joe is ashamed of not supporting his local football team and not ashamed of beating a dog to death. He will certainly go to states of woe.
Fred is ashamed of beating a dog to death and not ashamed of not supporting his local football team. His moral perception is fine ... except that he did beat a dog to death. Sounds like he will be heading for states of woe too, doesn't it?


Oh, if Joe is not (that is: would not be) ashamed of beating a dog to death (even in the hypothetic), I am sure he would be much closer to going to states of woe than Fred.

Really, moral perception and conscience is crucial. So I think actually, the reverse formulation of the cited Dhammapada quote would be overall quite apt.
Here a good Sutta to reflect this, maybe: Bija Sutta: The Seed
"When a person has right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration, right knowledge, & right release, whatever bodily deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever verbal deeds... whatever mental deeds he undertakes in line with that view, whatever intentions, whatever vows, whatever determinations, whatever fabrications, all lead to what is agreeable, pleasing, charming, profitable, & easeful. Why is that? Because the view is auspicious.


Shame is valuable in that it can motivate future good behaviour but it doesn't avert the kamma of past behaviour.

Shame is valuable, most important I think, in that it stops further bad behaviour, so there will be nothing more to be rightly ashamed of. With that, a learning process filled with joy in seeing the results how they actually come to be, is what motivates further good behaviour and progress.
Once one truly is "ashamed of what one should be ashamed of and not ashamed of what one should not be ashamed of" with full security, one would be a sotapanna, I think, "never again headed for states of woe".

So I think, in this sense, the reverse of the Dhammapada verse would be apt.

Another good sutta to reflect this: Micchatta Sutta: Wrongness
"From wrongness comes failure, not success. And how is it, monks, that from wrongness comes failure, not success?

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success.

"From rightness comes success, not failure. And how is it, monks, that from rightness comes success, not failure?

"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release. [1]

"This is how from rightness comes success, not failure."
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby Kim OHara » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:31 pm

perkele wrote:
Kim wrote:Shame is valuable in that it can motivate future good behaviour but it doesn't avert the kamma of past behaviour.

Shame is valuable, most important I think, in that it stops further bad behaviour, so there will be nothing more to be rightly ashamed of. With that, a learning process filled with joy in seeing the results how they actually come to be, is what motivates further good behaviour and progress.
Once one truly is "ashamed of what one should be ashamed of and not ashamed of what one should not be ashamed of" with full security, one would be a sotapanna, I think, "never again headed for states of woe".

So I think, in this sense, the reverse of the Dhammapada verse would be apt.

Hi, Perkele,
My point was that shame by itself is not enough - it has to lead to good behaviour. Don't we all know people who do things they are ashamed of (from eating too many chocolates to abusing alcohol) but keep right on doing them?

:namaste:
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby perkele » Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:05 pm

Yes yes, that is true. Shame by itself is not enough. And of course we all know such cases of being pointlessly ashamed without turning anything to the better. The problem is that people are ashamed even of trying to improve.

So my point was that Fred is not condemned to states of woe, as he still could find the turn to the good.

Still, being able to do good things, to face with courage the consequences of having beaten the dog to death. It has happened. The dog is dead. Feeling rightfully ashamed for this deed, yet still knowing that which one should not be ashamed of, being honest and sincere, helpful and courageous... making an effort and sticking to that, to realize the truth of these:

He, who by good deeds covers the evil he has done, illuminates this world like the moon freed from clouds.
Dhp 173

and:
The Salt Crystal

Then, how could one be headed for states of woe?

Difficult indeed, but "Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe" rings true to me.

:anjali:
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Re: Dhp XXII

Postby chownah » Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:02 am

Shame is just a pointer that points to an opportunity for learning.
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