Abusing the Buddha

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Abusing the Buddha

Postby lyallben » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:38 am

Interesting article in Salon.com
lyallben
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:56 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby culaavuso » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:06 am

For those who don't wish to search for it: Abusing the Buddha is the article.

It seems to be discussing the phenomenon of mindfulness being applied to achieve worldly goals apart from the eightfold path.
culaavuso
 
Posts: 1031
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby ihrjordan » Tue Mar 18, 2014 5:56 am

I really don't see it as an issue. What these people are doing is an immoral thing and in the end they will see exploiting a key principle of our religion has made them no more happier and maybe even suffering more. As long as we know what we're doing is noble and pure then nothing else matters it'll pass just the same. Like Dhammapada verse 50 says "na paresaṃ vilomāni, na paresaṃ katākataṃ.
attanova avekkheyya, katāni akatāni ca" "One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." :anjali:
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
User avatar
ihrjordan
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:42 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Doshin » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:21 am

culaavuso wrote:For those who don't wish to search for it: Abusing the Buddha is the article.

It seems to be discussing the phenomenon of mindfulness being applied to achieve worldly goals apart from the eightfold path.


Please correct if I'm wrong, but the picture in the article, I dont' think the figure in the photo is Buddha, but rather Hotei/Budai ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotei
... Many people confuse Budai with Gautama Buddha.


_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
User avatar
Doshin
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby binocular » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:15 pm

ihrjordan wrote:I really don't see it as an issue.

It seems like an issue inasmuch that under the name of Buddhism, they are teaching and doing things that don't seem to be Buddhist.

When one sees others abusing Buddhism - or at least it seems like they are abusing Buddhism - what should one do? Just sit there and take it?
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Doshin » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:29 pm

binocular wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:I really don't see it as an issue.

It seems like an issue inasmuch that under the name of Buddhism, they are teaching and doing things that don't seem to be Buddhist.

When one sees others abusing Buddhism - or at least it seems like they are abusing Buddhism ...


What they produce is "abused Buddhism", and that is not Buddhism.

binocular wrote:... - what should one do? Just sit there and take it?


Take what ? They are offending Buddhism, not you.

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
User avatar
Doshin
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby binocular » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:53 pm

Doshin wrote:Take what ? They are offending Buddhism, not you.

Depends on how much one identifies with Buddhism or being part of it or considers it relevant.
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby ihrjordan » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:02 pm

binocular wrote:
Doshin wrote:Take what ? They are offending Buddhism, not you.

Depends on how much one identifies with Buddhism or being part of it or considers it relevant.

yes and depending on your degree of pride and ego that is how much that article and this whole "mindfulness movement" should offend someone
"Ko imaṃ pathaviṃ vicessati, yamalokañca imaṃ sadevakaṃ.
ko dhammapadaṃ sudesitaṃ, kusalo pupphamiva pacessati"
User avatar
ihrjordan
 
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:42 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby anatta1 » Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:36 pm

It's a simply colour/visible object...
...
don't go too far....
Just seek in deep Paramattha Dhamma...


Don't let wrong understanding take you away....

stay within sammā-ditthi...

with metta
nobleanatta@gmail.com
with metta
Welcome any questions and discussions for Abidhamma
nobleanatta@gmail.com
Sayargyi U Kyin Shwe's Vipassana Seeker
Burma (Myanmar)
User avatar
anatta1
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:49 pm
Location: London

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Doshin » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:55 pm

binocular wrote:
Doshin wrote:Take what ? They are offending Buddhism, not you.

Depends on how much one identifies with Buddhism or being part of it or considers it relevant.


I think that the feeling identified with Buddhism, is a good starting-point to work on; does one have his/her own view, or does on have the "Buddhist" view.

I just see "abused Buddhism" as another lineage, it might be right for someone, at their place on their path.

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
User avatar
Doshin
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Coyote » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:04 pm

There is a sutta where the Buddha says that one should not get angry towards those who criticise or misrepresent Buddhism, but calmly explain the Dhamma and move on. Anyone know what this is?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Coyote
 
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby culaavuso » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:49 pm

Coyote wrote:There is a sutta where the Buddha says that one should not get angry towards those who criticise or misrepresent Buddhism, but calmly explain the Dhamma and move on. Anyone know what this is?


Perhaps this:
SN 7.2: Akkosa Sutta wrote:In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours.

Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours.
...
You make things worse
when you flare up
at someone who's angry.
Whoever doesn't flare up
at someone who's angry
wins a battle
hard to win.

You live for the good of both
— your own, the other's —
when, knowing the other's provoked,
you mindfully grow calm.
culaavuso
 
Posts: 1031
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Coyote » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:05 pm

culaavuso wrote:
Perhaps this:

...




I'm not sure as I have only heard of the sutta, never read it. Think it was in a talk by ven. Thanissaro. Nevertheless, your sutta seems relevant to the topic at hand.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26
Coyote
 
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby waterchan » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:53 pm

Coyote wrote:There is a sutta where the Buddha says that one should not get angry towards those who criticise or misrepresent Buddhism, but calmly explain the Dhamma and move on. Anyone know what this is?


I believe you're looking for the panoptic DN 1:

If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should not give way to resentment, displeasure, or animosity against them in your heart. For if you were to become angry or upset in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves. If you were to become angry or upset when others speak in dispraise of us, would you be able to recognize whether their statements are rightly or wrongly spoken?”

“Certainly not, Lord.”

“If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as false, saying: ‘For such and such a reason this is false, this is untrue, there is no such thing in us, this is not found among us.’

“And if, bhikkhus, others speak in praise of me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should not give way to jubilation, joy, and exultation in your heart. For if you were to become jubilant, joyful, and exultant in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves. If others speak in praise of me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should acknowledge what is fact as fact, saying: ‘For such and such a reason this is a fact, this is true, there is such a thing in us, this is found among us.’


And anyway, what is this abuse of Buddhism thing? Is that even possible?
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
User avatar
waterchan
 
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 7:17 pm
Location: Sereitei

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Sokehi » Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:00 pm

There is food for the body, and people, haven eaten and strengthend themselves enough for another day of samsaric endeavours some might do skillfull ore unskillfull things.

I think it's the same with the Dhamma, or parts of the dhamma. One can take these teachings or practices to act skillfull or use them to gain more power over others etc.

Both is just food and it's only my own body and mind I can (more or less) control how to use the strength gained thanks to such nourishment.

For me personally it's not a situation were I develop much worry about it. To realise the path is very difficult and who knows... some might start with these rather wrong or unskillfull practices but might end up with a more profound interest in the teachings of the blessed one.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr
User avatar
Sokehi
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:27 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby libraryman » Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:10 pm

binocular wrote:
ihrjordan wrote:I really don't see it as an issue.

It seems like an issue inasmuch that under the name of Buddhism, they are teaching and doing things that don't seem to be Buddhist.

When one sees others abusing Buddhism - or at least it seems like they are abusing Buddhism - what should one do? Just sit there and take it?


Is that different from samourai in Japan? They also use mindfullness too... Am i right?
libraryman
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:57 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby binocular » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:12 pm

How do these -

ihrjordan wrote:yes and depending on your degree of pride and ego that is how much that article and this whole "mindfulness movement" should offend someone

anatta1 wrote:It's a simply colour/visible object...
...
don't go too far....
Just seek in deep Paramattha Dhamma...


fit with this:

waterchan wrote: DN 1:

“If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as false, saying: ‘For such and such a reason this is false, this is untrue, there is no such thing in us, this is not found among us.’


?

- - -

And anyway, what is this abuse of Buddhism thing? Is that even possible?

It's when people "speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha."


Doshin wrote:I think that the feeling identified with Buddhism, is a good starting-point to work on; does one have his/her own view, or does on have the "Buddhist" view.

What do you mean?
That since one might not have the right understanding of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha yet, that therefore, when one sees others criticize the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, one should just be silent and not think of it any further?
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Doshin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:35 am

binocular wrote:
Doshin wrote:I think that the feeling identified with Buddhism, is a good starting-point to work on; does one have his/her own view, or does on have the "Buddhist" view.

What do you mean?
That since one might not have the right understanding of the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha yet, that therefore, when one sees others criticize the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, one should just be silent and not think of it any further?

(my highlights in the above quoted)

I don't consider "a good starting-point to work on" being the same as "just be silent and not think of it any further". What I tried to hint on, was that ones feeling offended, might have an internal root within one self; and one would have to peel of one layer of the onion, to get closer to the cause.

Righteous anger is still anger, and a source for dukkha. I therefore don't see a counter"attack" as a wholesome approach to the issue (something with anger feeding on anger). As one implied, I would consider it more wholesome to exercise equanimity, and talk/explain to people, if they show interest in my view on this issue.

I would aim towards equanimity, with a direction of something like "they badmouth their deluded view on Buddhism, not my personal views, why should I feel offended". But others must walk another route on their path, with another approach, and in the end we will each learn our own lesson.

And when is it 'abused' Buddhism ? I guess it is any Buddhism not equal to the "true one", there are several lineages, and they can't all be true, are they all (but one ?) wrong/abused as well ?

_/\_

EDIT: wrong "there" changed to "their"
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
User avatar
Doshin
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby binocular » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:03 pm

Doshin wrote:I don't consider "a good starting-point to work on" being the same as "just be silent and not think of it any further". What I tried to hint on, was that ones feeling offended, might have an internal root within one self; and one would have to peel of one layer of the onion, to get closer to the cause.

And that cause needn't be an unskillful one. Unless we are to posit that attachment to and holding dear the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha is unskillful.

Righteous anger is still anger, and a source for dukkha.

Nobody here was suggesting righteous anger. Some of the replies struck me as a bit too passive, too uninvested in Buddhism.


For those who keep raising the point that a quote that is misattributed to the Buddha is somehow fine because it’s nice or noble or whatever, that is entirely irrelevant. Honesty is a radical practice in Buddhism. Not just honesty when it suits us but being honest when things are misrepresented (even in a seemingly well intentioned manner).

One thing that the Buddha is recorded as saying is that when teachings or sayings are ascribed to him which he did not say, it is the duty of those who practice the Dharma to correct such misattributions. By asking Buddhists to allow misattribution and misrepresentation, once a quote is known not to be from the Buddha, you are asking them to be deliberately dishonest and to misrepresent the Buddha and the Dharma. That is not acceptable. Hold yourself to a higher standard – one of being as accurate and honest as you can be – and you will find it a far more transformative practice than making excuses for misattributed platitudes.

http://www.fakebuddhaquotes.com/radical ... -buddhism/


I would aim towards equanimity, with a direction of something like "they badmouth their deluded view on Buddhism, not my personal views, why should I feel offended".
And when is it 'abused' Buddhism ? I guess it is any Buddhism not equal to the "true one", there are several lineages, and they can't all be true, are they all (but one ?) wrong/abused as well ?

It seems to me that if one takes Buddhism personally, then one will take personally anything that in any way has to do with Buddhism. This doesn't automatically mean joy when it is praised and agreed with, and grief or anger when it is dispraised (although for some people, this is how it goes). But I think it does mean that one will feel moved in some way to some action. This may involve talking to those praising or dispraising, or not. It may be an invitation to reflect on the praise and criticism, check if they are true or not. It may be an invitation to reflect on one's commitment to the path.


A few days ago, I had invited a venerable to post in this thread, because I know he has some poignant things to say on the topic.
binocular
 
Posts: 1351
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Abusing the Buddha

Postby Doshin » Fri Mar 21, 2014 2:27 pm

binocular wrote:
Doshin wrote:I don't consider "a good starting-point to work on" being the same as "just be silent and not think of it any further". What I tried to hint on, was that ones feeling offended, might have an internal root within one self; and one would have to peel of one layer of the onion, to get closer to the cause.

And that cause needn't be an unskillful one. Unless we are to posit that attachment to and holding dear the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha is unskillful.


Of course it does not have to have a unskilful cause in every case. But I would suggest that it would be beneficial to fully understand ones "feeling offended", before one takes action and stands up to argue(/fight ?) for Buddhism's reputation.

Actually you did cut out what I see as a wholesome act in the given example: I would consider it more wholesome to exercise equanimity, and talk/explain to people, if they show interest in my view on this issue.

binocular wrote:
Righteous anger is still anger, and a source for dukkha.

Nobody here was suggesting righteous anger. Some of the replies struck me as a bit too passive, too uninvested in Buddhism.


Youre right, I might have put a little to much in "just sit and take it", in my mind its continuation would be ".. one should stand up for ones right". And you did not make that suggestion, sorry.

That said, I still put statements (none made explicit, but that was the tone I sensed in some of the posts) like "How dare they...", "Some one should put them right, and not just sit and do nothing", as a kind of anger. In other words, expressing ones offendednes could very easily come out as righteous anger.

binocular wrote:It seems to me that if one takes Buddhism personally, then one will take personally anything that in any way has to do with Buddhism. This doesn't automatically mean joy when it is praised and agreed with, and grief or anger when it is dispraised (although for some people, this is how it goes). But I think it does mean that one will feel moved in some way to some action. This may involve talking to those praising or dispraising, or not. It may be an invitation to reflect on the praise and criticism, check if they are true or not. It may be an invitation to reflect on one's commitment to the path.


With this, I suspect that we are trying to write the same. Your version just has more/another wrapping ?

_/\_
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
User avatar
Doshin
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:01 am

Next

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests