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Dhamma Wheel • View topic - Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby SarathW » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:40 am

Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

It seems that Arahant do not think that he is higher lower or equal to someone. However they do bowdown, circle around etc to Buddha.
However Buddha do not do the same to an Arahant.
Why?
===========
Sensing that "The Teacher approves of me," Ven. Khema got up from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One, circled him — keeping him on his right — and left.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:thinking:
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:43 am

Arahant comes from the Pali word arahati meaning ‘worthy’ or ‘noble’ and is a title given to someone who has attained enlightenment as a result of listening to and practising the teachings of a Buddha.
Buddhism is unique among the major world religions in that followers can attain to the same level as the founder. In Buddhism, anyone can attain enlightenment and reach the same wisdom and title as the Buddha, an enlightened one.

However, as a sign of respect and reverence, I would presume a "Pupil" - whatever they have managed to achieve - would always show deference to his - or her - "Teacher".
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:27 am

On a worldly level yes.
The buddha had no direct help findi g the path and as a result kows the intricacies and wrong turns to avoid.
Also the buddha is called an arahant.
On a spiritual leven no. An enlightened being is of the same mind as another enlightened being.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:14 am

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby Kasina » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:42 pm

Cittasanto wrote:On a worldly level yes.
The buddha had no direct help findi g the path and as a result kows the intricacies and wrong turns to avoid.
Also the buddha is called an arahant.
On a spiritual leven no. An enlightened being is of the same mind as another enlightened being.

:goodpost:
"This world completely lacks essence;
It trembles in all directions.
I longed to find myself a place
Unscathed — but I could not see it."


Sn 4.15 PTS: Sn 935-951 "Attadanda Sutta: Arming Oneself"

"You will be required to do wrong no matter where you go... This is the curse at work, the curse that feeds on all life..."

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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby SarathW » Thu Apr 17, 2014 12:32 am

Considering Bhikkhu Bodhi’s comments (see below) I understand it as follows:

Respect the elders and the seniors is a great Buddhist monks tradition and ethics.
Even a 50 year old person (even he is an Arahant) ordained today has to bow down to the person (younger and no an Arahant) ordained yesterday.
The same way if a person disrobe and re join the order, the person will lose his seniority.
I think lay person (even if the person is an Arahant) has to bow down to a monk (not Arahant) based on the same principal.

In that sense Buddha is the highest in the order.
Am I correct?

=======================

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Thus the Buddha is distinguished from the arahant disciples, not
by some categorical difference in their respective attainments, but by his role: he is the first one in this historical epoch to attain liberation, and he serves as the incomparable guide in making known the way to liberation. He has skills in teaching that even the most capable of his disciples cannot match, but with regard to their world-transcending attainments, both the Buddha and the arahants are ‘buddho’, "enlightened," in that they have comprehended the truths that should be comprehended. They are both ‘nibbuto’, in that they have extinguished the defilements and thereby attained the peace of nirvâna. They are both ‘suvimutto’, fully liberated. They have fully understood the truth of suffering; they have abandoned craving, the origin of suffering; they have realized nirvâna, the cessation of suffering; and they have completed the practice of the noble eightfold path, the way leading to the cessation of suffering
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby Kusala » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:30 am

SarathW wrote:Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

It seems that Arahant do not think that he is higher lower or equal to someone. However they do bowdown, circle around etc to Buddha.
However Buddha do not do the same to an Arahant.
Why?
===========
Sensing that "The Teacher approves of me," Ven. Khema got up from his seat, bowed down to the Blessed One, circled him — keeping him on his right — and left.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:thinking:


Arahants, Bodhisattvas, and Buddhas -------> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ttvas.html
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Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby SarathW » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:07 am

SarathW wrote:Considering Bhikkhu Bodhi’s comments (see below) I understand it as follows:

Respect the elders and the seniors is a great Buddhist monks tradition and ethics.
Even a 50 year old person (even he is an Arahant) ordained today has to bow down to the person (younger and no an Arahant) ordained yesterday.
The same way if a person disrobe and re join the order, the person will lose his seniority.
I think lay person (even if the person is an Arahant) has to bow down to a monk (not Arahant) based on the same principal.

In that sense Buddha is the highest in the order.
Am I correct?

=======================

Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Thus the Buddha is distinguished from the arahant disciples, not
by some categorical difference in their respective attainments, but by his role: he is the first one in this historical epoch to attain liberation, and he serves as the incomparable guide in making known the way to liberation. He has skills in teaching that even the most capable of his disciples cannot match, but with regard to their world-transcending attainments, both the Buddha and the arahants are ‘buddho’, "enlightened," in that they have comprehended the truths that should be comprehended. They are both ‘nibbuto’, in that they have extinguished the defilements and thereby attained the peace of nirvâna. They are both ‘suvimutto’, fully liberated. They have fully understood the truth of suffering; they have abandoned craving, the origin of suffering; they have realized nirvâna, the cessation of suffering; and they have completed the practice of the noble eightfold path, the way leading to the cessation of suffering


I appreciate if someone answer my question.
What is the order of respect for each other as monks?
Specially in connection with Bikkhuni's order.
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:17 am

Oh, don't ask about Bhikkuni order. Disrespected in many places, and not recognised.
A Bhikkuni will always be lower than a Bhikku, as far as many are concerned.


as far as I have been made aware....

http://www.awaken.com/2012/12/bhikkhuni ... rdination/

This is fascinating:

http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... -final.pdf


:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby waterchan » Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:09 am

SarathW wrote:
What is the order of respect for each other as monks?
Specially in connection with Bikkhuni's order.


Depends on whether you believe that the eight garudhammas were taught by the Buddha.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Thu Apr 24, 2014 10:15 am

Thank you, waterchan;

I personally do not believe they were.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Is Buddha higher than Arahant?

Postby bharadwaja » Mon May 12, 2014 5:16 pm

The Buddha was himself an arahant and is therefore not higher or lower than any other arahant. Neither is he equal to or unequal to any other arahant. The reason is that measuring arahant-ness is a pointless thing.

Yet you rightly observed that the Buddha alone among (Buddhist) arahants receives more respect from Buddhists. That is not because he is a higher arahant but due to the following reasons:

1. No other Buddhist (or maybe non Buddhist) arahant has gone so much out of the way as to spend their entire life instructing non-Buddhists and Buddhists alike. So people feel grateful to him.

2. Among all arahants only his story is so well documented. So even if there are other arahants we don't know much about them.

3. This difference is purely from the point of view of non-arahants. An arahant would not feel the need to venerate the Buddha except as a predisposition i.e. habit.

Arahant does not mean noble, it means foe-slayer. In the context of Buddhism it refers to the Arahant's victory over Mara ("death")
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