Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 18, 2014 9:58 am

bharadwaja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Are you implying, or saying directly, that an arahant or Buddha does experience greed, hatred, and delusion?


They are capable of feeling lust,delusion,greed and hate, but by diligently practising the dhamma (what I call striving), their mind remains in their control and not under the control of the kilesas. So they don't experience greed, lust, hate and delusion as a result of fully understanding & practising the dhamma, not if they stop practising it.
And how do you know that arahants and the Buddha are capable experiencing "lust, delusion and hate?"

If nibbana, asankhata, is not the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, then the texts are simply wrong.


Quite the opposite, if someone has destroyed the kilesas beyond redemption, then there would be no need for them to continue to practise the dhamma. However the texts do show us that the Buddha (and other arahants) continued to practise the dhamma. That can only mean the kilesas were not allowed to invade the arahant's mind anymore. It may be your interpretation of the texts that is wrong.
The most straightforward definition the Buddha gives of Nibbana is:
    That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
    nibbana.
    -- S.N. IV 251 and IV 321
And we see:
    That which is the destruction of greed, hatred and delusion is
    asankhata.
    -- S.N. IV 359 and S.N. 362
The suttas are quite straightforward here.

But do show us that the texts say quite clearly the texts, teachings of the Buddha, tell us that the arahant and the Buddha experience(d) greed, hatred, and delusion. That should be simple enough
.

I did not say that the Arahants experience(d) them, but rather that they are/were still capable of experiencing them if they give up striving against them (i.e. stopped practising the dhamma).
Yes, so you say, but so you have not shown.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sun May 18, 2014 10:34 am

tiltbillings wrote:And how do you know that arahants and the Buddha are capable experiencing "lust, delusion and hate?"

The canon itself states so - Māra repeatedly tries to enter (i.e. invade the bodies & minds of) the Buddha and other arahants, but the Buddha and other arahants are skilled in warding him off. However, see this when Māra enters Mahā Moggallāna's body without his knowledge.

Māra is the personification of the kilesas such as lust, delusion & hate and thereby attempts to cause spiritual "death".

The Kayagata-sati Sutta: In whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold.

In this sutta, the Buddha claims that an Arahant blinds Māra (so Māra can't even find the Arahant, much less enter/battle him). In another sutta the Buddha mentions that he has slain Māra (i.e. "killed death"). however other suttas do mention Arahants (like Mahā Moggallāna above) or the Buddha being troubled by Māra, so the canon does not mean that Māra has been literally or permanently killed.
Last edited by bharadwaja on Sun May 18, 2014 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 18, 2014 10:46 am

bharadwaja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:And how do you know that arahants and the Buddha are capable experiencing "lust, delusion and hate?"

The canon itself states so - Māra repeatedly tries to enter (i.e. invade the bodies & minds of) the Buddha and other arahants, but the Buddha and other arahants are skilled in warding him off. However, see this when Māra enters Mahā Moggallāna's body without his knowledge.

The Kayagata-sati Sutta: In whomever mindfulness immersed in the body is not developed, not pursued, Mara gains entry, Mara gains a foothold.

In this sutta, the Buddha claims that an Arahant blinds Māra (so Māra can't even find the Arahant, much less enter/battle him). In another sutta the Buddha mentions that he has slain Māra (i.e. "killed death"). however other suttas do mention Arahants (like Mahā Moggallāna above) or the Buddha being troubled by Māra, so the canon does not mean that Māra has been literally or permanently killed.
The problem with your contention is that you totally ignore the definitions of awakening and the destruction of the roots given to us by the Buddha. As for Mara, do the arahants really face a threat from him? It seems not, and I am waiting for you to show us an instance of an arahant defeated by Mara or one who just stopped practicing and became a worldling again.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun May 18, 2014 11:14 am

This Sutta, The Buddha explains how The Evil One gains a foothold:

Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body

In this one, it is amply demonstrated that even though Mara tries, he does not.

Majjhima Nikaaya
Sutta 50.

You cannot find sources to denote that an arahant is capable of going backwards and staying there.

The Enlightened ones may well be subject to the horrors of Samsara. But they capably recognise, discard and dismiss them, as one might flick off an ant from one's arm.

Still no go, friend.

Keep trying....

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sun May 18, 2014 12:01 pm

The sutta stated that Arahant is not exempt from bodily sickness so what if an arahant was diagnosed with huntington’s disease which leads to cognitive impairment, memory deficit and various psychiatric symptoms?

How is it possible that the culmination of right mindfulness be sustained in this case?

Sorry for being little off topic.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun May 18, 2014 12:11 pm

:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby barcsimalsi » Sun May 18, 2014 12:18 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:Read this Sutta.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www ... nm0qcFVMRA

I don't think it answer my question.
Regarding the disease;
...Cognitive abilities are progressively impaired. Especially affected are executive functions which include planning, cognitive flexibility, abstract thinking, rule acquisition, initiation of appropriate actions, and inhibition of inappropriate actions.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby waterchan » Sun May 18, 2014 1:08 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:The sutta stated that Arahant is not exempt from bodily sickness so what if an arahant was diagnosed with huntington’s disease which leads to cognitive impairment, memory deficit and various psychiatric symptoms?

How is it possible that the culmination of right mindfulness be sustained in this case?


Why would an arahant need to sustain right mindfulness? He/she is done with the path, all defilements are uprooted, and he/she has no use for the path any more.
quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur
(Anything in Latin sounds profound.)
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun May 18, 2014 1:11 pm

I would imagine that the more one has trained the Mind, and the more advanced in practice a person is, the less evident the Mental affliction would be, although there may still be effects. But this is my hypothesis.

All I know is that a dear friend who studied and practised Buddhism for far longer than I ever have and to my perception was an extraordinary being, died of a cancerous brain tumour, but both defied doctors' predictions and astounded them by remaining lucid, coherent and fully aware, seemingly unchanged mentally by the tumour in her brain, although physical impairment was greater than expected.
She knew her moment of death, and lay in peaceful meditation, humming quietly, until the sound faded away with her final out-breath.

I was not there, but her sister was, and the description of her passing still moves me to tears.

I really miss her.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 18, 2014 3:23 pm

waterchan wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:The sutta stated that Arahant is not exempt from bodily sickness so what if an arahant was diagnosed with huntington’s disease which leads to cognitive impairment, memory deficit and various psychiatric symptoms?

How is it possible that the culmination of right mindfulness be sustained in this case?


Why would an arahant need to sustain right mindfulness? He/she is done with the path, all defilements are uprooted, and he/she has no use for the path any more.
The simile of the raft.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby Mkoll » Sun May 18, 2014 3:33 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
waterchan wrote:
barcsimalsi wrote:The sutta stated that Arahant is not exempt from bodily sickness so what if an arahant was diagnosed with huntington’s disease which leads to cognitive impairment, memory deficit and various psychiatric symptoms?

How is it possible that the culmination of right mindfulness be sustained in this case?


Why would an arahant need to sustain right mindfulness? He/she is done with the path, all defilements are uprooted, and he/she has no use for the path any more.
The simile of the raft.


This:

The Raft Simile

"Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. [7] Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying it on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."
-MN 22
Peace,
James
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby Mkoll » Sun May 18, 2014 3:40 pm

barcsimalsi wrote:The sutta stated that Arahant is not exempt from bodily sickness so what if an arahant was diagnosed with huntington’s disease which leads to cognitive impairment, memory deficit and various psychiatric symptoms?

How is it possible that the culmination of right mindfulness be sustained in this case?

Sorry for being little off topic.


I think the simile of the raft applies to this situation as well.

The Buddha says that kamma requires intention. I didn't see any intention in my grandfather as he progressed into more severe stages of Alzheimer's. He had to be led around like a child or a pet and if you left him alone, he might wander off and get lost. He couldn't even relieve himself properly and had to wear a diaper that had to be changed every day. I don't think he was creating new kamma at that stage in the disease.

An arahant has stopped creating new kamma regardless of having a cognitive impairment or not. So I don't think that that a cognitive disease would change things much for the arahant.
Peace,
James
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby barcsimalsi » Mon May 19, 2014 3:57 am

Thanks for the replies everyone.

As how i see it, the quality of intention pretty much depends on cognitive ability.

I have a relative who got stroke and cognitive problem, he was a mechanic for about 40 years but now he can’t even recognize which tool to use for loosening the nut from the bolt.

I was thinking that an arahant with cognitive impairment can’t recognize things as its true nature of being impermanence, non-self and unsatisfactory thus give rise to unwholesome thought since mentality is dependently rising.
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