Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 17, 2014 12:52 am

arhat wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Arhat, I suggest you make friends with gben, our resident "buddha"!!

:tongue: No thanks, I like the solitude of the sangha. :meditate:
Regardless of your misgivings about the use of the term, an arahant is a striver, a truth seeker... an original - while most modern Buddhists seem to think it's an ideological being who must claim himself/herself a theravadin to realize the theravadin dhamma of the theravadin Buddha... reality is far from these dogmatic ideological bases.
An arahant, by definition, is one who has found the truth. No further striving needed.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sat May 17, 2014 1:09 am

tiltbillings wrote:An arahant, by definition, is one who has found the truth. No further striving needed.

That is incorrect, an arahant does not cease being a samana (sramana i.e. striver). The truth as you seem to think is not an invariable monolith that one has landed on, it is more of an awareness and alertness to change, and striving continuously to keep one's kilesas at bay. Mara returns time and again, even to a Buddha.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 17, 2014 2:08 am

arhat wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:An arahant, by definition, is one who has found the truth. No further striving needed.

That is incorrect,
According to whom?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby Mkoll » Sat May 17, 2014 2:14 am

arhat wrote:Mara returns time and again, even to a Buddha.

This is your speculation. How could you know what goes on in the Buddha's mind?

Unless you are claiming you are a Buddha and have personally witnessed Mara's return, time and time again?
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby Qianxi » Sat May 17, 2014 5:54 am

an arhant is still a striver

I'm not sure how that fits with
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī’’ti.
He knows: "Birth is ended, the holy life is established, what was to be done is done, there is no more beyond."

This phrase is common to all early buddhist schools. In fact the whole sutta pitaka is not very 'Theravadan' (in the modern sense), it's the common early buddhist heritage.

There's also a good article somewhere about how mara cannot always be taken psychologically (Analayo responding to Stephen Batchelor?). Basically sometimes Mara causes real life physical harm to others (throwing rocks at them, splitting their head open), not just mental harm. Unfortunately I can't find it.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sat May 17, 2014 2:47 pm

Mkoll wrote:
arhat wrote:Mara returns time and again, even to a Buddha.

This is your speculation. How could you know what goes on in the Buddha's mind?

Unless you are claiming you are a Buddha and have personally witnessed Mara's return, time and time again?

Have you read the dictionary of Pali proper names? It is a good book full of references. Here is a passage under the article on Māra.

The Samyutta Nikāya (S.i.124f.; given also at Lal. 490 (378); cp. A.v.46; see also DhA.iii.195f ) also contains a sutta ("Dhītaro" Sutta) in which three daughters of Māra are represented as tempting the Buddha after his Enlightenment. Their names are Tanhā, Arati and Ragā, and they are evidently personifications of three of the ten forces in Māra's army, as given in the Padhāna Sutta. They assume numerous forms of varying age and charm, full of blandishment, but their attempt is vain, and they are obliged to admit defeat.

I'm not sure how that fits with
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī’’ti.
He knows: "Birth is ended, the holy life is established, what was to be done is done, there is no more beyond."

Do you mean to say that the claim "what was to be done is done" does not fit with the idea of an arahant still being a śramaṇa i.e. striver? That may perhaps be true depending on what is meant by karaṇīyaṃ ("to be done"). I think śrama ("striving") is not included in the meaning of karaṇīyaṃ. However, the fact that Buddha still lived the life of a śramaṇa even after his supposed enlightenment is sufficient proof that the śramaṇa ideal is not ended after one becomes an arahant. Indeed the very opposite is true - i.e. the arhant is the living exemplar of the śramaṇic ideal, one who has silenced his kilesas and conquered Māra.

There's also a good article somewhere about how mara cannot always be taken psychologically (Analayo responding to Stephen Batchelor?). Basically sometimes Mara causes real life physical harm to others (throwing rocks at them, splitting their head open), not just mental harm. Unfortunately I can't find it.

I do not claim that the canon is free of mythology.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 17, 2014 3:54 pm

bharadwaja wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
arhat wrote:Mara returns time and again, even to a Buddha.

This is your speculation. How could you know what goes on in the Buddha's mind?

Unless you are claiming you are a Buddha and have personally witnessed Mara's return, time and time again?

Have you read the dictionary of Pali proper names? It is a good book full of references. Here is a passage under the article on Māra.

The Samyutta Nikāya (S.i.124f.; given also at Lal. 490 (378); cp. A.v.46; see also DhA.iii.195f ) also contains a sutta ("Dhītaro" Sutta) in which three daughters of Māra are represented as tempting the Buddha after his Enlightenment. Their names are Tanhā, Arati and Ragā, and they are evidently personifications of three of the ten forces in Māra's army, as given in the Padhāna Sutta. They assume numerous forms of varying age and charm, full of blandishment, but their attempt is vain, and they are obliged to admit defeat.


This doesn't indicate any return visits by Mara to the Buddha... It merely expands on Mara and his daughters.

How is this to be taken as support for arhat's assertion that Mara returns 'time and time again '...?


:namaste:
:namaste:

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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sat May 17, 2014 4:34 pm

How is this to be taken as support for arhat's assertion that Mara returns 'time and time again '...?

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 17, 2014 4:41 pm

Ah.

Persistent little bleeder, isn't he?

Caught out every time, though....

You'd think after a while he would get it......

We Unenlightened folk have the sorry tendency to keep inviting him back for tea....
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby Mkoll » Sat May 17, 2014 4:43 pm

bharadwaja wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
arhat wrote:Mara returns time and again, even to a Buddha.

This is your speculation. How could you know what goes on in the Buddha's mind?

Unless you are claiming you are a Buddha and have personally witnessed Mara's return, time and time again?

Have you read the dictionary of Pali proper names? It is a good book full of references. Here is a passage under the article on Māra.

The Samyutta Nikāya (S.i.124f.; given also at Lal. 490 (378); cp. A.v.46; see also DhA.iii.195f ) also contains a sutta ("Dhītaro" Sutta) in which three daughters of Māra are represented as tempting the Buddha after his Enlightenment. Their names are Tanhā, Arati and Ragā, and they are evidently personifications of three of the ten forces in Māra's army, as given in the Padhāna Sutta. They assume numerous forms of varying age and charm, full of blandishment, but their attempt is vain, and they are obliged to admit defeat.

That is valid. There is also MN 50 where Ven. Moggallana rebukes Mara. I concede the point. However, although he may return, he is always defeated.

bharadwaja wrote:However, the fact that Buddha still lived the life of a śramaṇa even after his supposed enlightenment is sufficient proof that the śramaṇa ideal is not ended after one becomes an arahant.

He continued to live the life of a homeless ascetic mendicant, yes. But he was done with striving for the cessation of suffering after his enlightenment.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sat May 17, 2014 4:49 pm

:goodpost:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sat May 17, 2014 7:38 pm

bharadwaja wrote:But he was done with striving for the cessation of suffering after his enlightenment.

The Buddha's attainment of nibbana was an enlightenment indeed (in a mental sense) but it did not mean he had made himself permanently incapable of experiencing dukkha, but that he knew how to avoid dukkha deliberately and consciously, by striving on the eightfold path. The difference therefore between an arahant and non-arahant is just that for an arahant, his knowledge is complete, while the non-arahant is someone still learning the ropes.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat May 17, 2014 11:06 pm

bharadwaja wrote:
I'm not sure how that fits with
‘Khīṇā jāti, vusitaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, kataṃ karaṇīyaṃ, nāparaṃ itthattāyā’ti pajānātī’’ti.
He knows: "Birth is ended, the holy life is established, what was to be done is done, there is no more beyond."

Do you mean to say that the claim "what was to be done is done" does not fit with the idea of an arahant still being a śramaṇa i.e. striver? That may perhaps be true depending on what is meant by karaṇīyaṃ ("to be done"). I think śrama ("striving") is not included in the meaning of karaṇīyaṃ. However, the fact that Buddha still lived the life of a śramaṇa even after his supposed enlightenment is sufficient proof that the śramaṇa ideal is not ended after one becomes an arahant. Indeed the very opposite is true - i.e. the arhant is the living exemplar of the śramaṇic ideal, one who has silenced his kilesas and conquered Māra.
Strive. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. As the teachings make quite clear, once awakening -- the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion -- is achieved, there is no more striving, no more struggling. The striving is done, finished, which is very neatly illustrated by Mara confronting the arahant/the Buddha stories. Here there is no struggle, no striving:

    Setting at Savatthi. Then, in the morning, the bhikkhuni Sela dressed... she sat down at the foot of a tree for the day's abiding.

    Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Sela, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:

    By whom has this puppet been created?
    Where is the maker of the puppet?
    Where has the puppet arisen?
    Where does the puppet cease?


    Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Sela: "Now who is this...? This is Mara the Evil One... desiring to make me fall away from concentration."

    Then the bhikkhuni Sela, having understood, "This is Mara the Evil One," replied to him in verses:

    This puppet is not made by itself,
    Nor is this misery made by another.
    It has come to be dependent on a cause,
    When the cause dissolves then it will cease.

    As when a seed is sown in a field
    It grows depending on a pair of factors:
    It requires both the soil's nutrients
    And a steady supply of moisture.

    Just so the aggregates and elements,
    And these six bases of sensory contact,
    Have come to be dependent on a cause;
    When the cause dissolves they will cease.


    Then Mara the Evil One, realizing, "The bhikkhuni Sela knows me," sad and disappointed, disappeared right there.
    SN 5.9 PTS: S i 134 CDB i 228

    [Mara:]
    Of what they say,
    'This is mine';
    and those who say,
    'Mine':
    If your intellect's here,
    contemplative,
    you can't escape
    from me.

    [The Buddha:]
    What they speak of
    isn't mine,
    and I'm not one of those
    who speak it.
    Know this, Evil One:
    you won't even see
    my tracks.


    Then Mara the Evil One — sad & dejected at realizing, "The Blessed One knows me; the One Well-gone knows me" — vanished right there.
    SN 4.19 PTS: S i 114 CDB i 208
No struggle, no striving. With the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion the relationship the arahant/the Buddha has with samsara/the world/Mara is of a completely different order. Mara has absolutely no hold on the arahant/the Buddha. The arahant is "unsullied by the world" (SN 22.94).

bharadwaja: "an arhant is still a striver." Not at all.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sun May 18, 2014 7:47 am

The striving is of 2 kinds - one is the striving of the bhikku to comprehend the nature of reality (i.e. the dhamma). The second is to put the dhamma into practise.

The striving that I meant for the arahant is the second one. One does not stop striving to live the dhammic life just because one has become an arahant. But striving to comprehend the dhamma comes to an end once one becomes an arahant.
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 18, 2014 7:57 am

bharadwaja wrote:The striving is of 2 kinds - one is the striving of the bhikku to comprehend the nature of reality (i.e. the dhamma). The second is to put the dhamma into practise.

The striving that I meant for the arahant is the second one. One does not stop striving to live the dhammic life just because one has become an arahant. But striving to comprehend the dhamma comes to an end once one becomes an arahant.
The arahant does not need to strive to put the Dhamma into practice. The striving is finished with awakening; it is a matter of simply living the Dhamma as an expression of the transformation of one's life via the freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun May 18, 2014 8:14 am

Precisely, I agree. :goodpost:
:namaste:

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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sun May 18, 2014 8:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:it is a matter of simply living the Dhamma as an expression of the transformation of one's life via the freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion.

Are you saying that the arahant as a result of becoming an arahant becomes incapable of feeling lust, delusion, greed, hate etc rather than avoiding them consciously by his self-determination, and not letting them take control of his mind?

Or are you saying that such a conscious & determined avoidance should not be called "striving"?
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby tiltbillings » Sun May 18, 2014 8:59 am

bharadwaja wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:it is a matter of simply living the Dhamma as an expression of the transformation of one's life via the freedom from greed, hatred, and delusion.

Are you saying that the arahant as a result of becoming an arahant becomes incapable of feeling lust, delusion, greed, hate etc rather than striving to avoid them consciously, and not let them take control of his mind?
Are you implying, or saying directly, that an arahant or Buddha does experience greed, hatred, and delusion?

If nibbana, asankhata, is not the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, then the texts are simply wrong. But do show us that the texts say quite clearly the texts, teachings of the Buddha, tell us that the arahant and the Buddha experience(d) greed, hatred, and delusion. That should be simple enough.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Sun May 18, 2014 9:07 am

He is saying an arahant is no longer bothered, concerned or beset by such matters.

It is beyond his "Interest" to consider such 'banalities'.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Was Pali Lord Buddha's "native" or spoken language?

Postby bharadwaja » Sun May 18, 2014 9:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:Are you implying, or saying directly, that an arahant or Buddha does experience greed, hatred, and delusion?


They are capable of feeling lust,delusion,greed and hate, but by diligently practising the dhamma (what I call striving), their mind remains in their control and not under the control of the kilesas. So they don't experience greed, lust, hate and delusion as a result of fully understanding & practising the dhamma, not if they stop practising it.

If nibbana, asankhata, is not the destruction of greed, hatred, and delusion, then the texts are simply wrong.


Quite the opposite, if someone has destroyed the kilesas beyond redemption, then there would be no continuing need for them to practise the dhamma. However the texts do show us that the Buddha (and other arahants) continued to practise the dhamma. That can only mean the kilesas were not allowed to invade the arahant's mind anymore.

It may be your interpretation of the texts that is wrong.

But do show us that the texts say quite clearly the texts, teachings of the Buddha, tell us that the arahant and the Buddha experience(d) greed, hatred, and delusion. That should be simple enough
.

I did not say that the Arahants experience(d) them, but rather that they are/were still capable of experiencing them if they gave up striving against them (i.e. stopped practising the dhamma).
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