Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed May 28, 2014 8:36 am

daverupa wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:It is not the case that Pure Land is describing jhana realms, or anything like them, nor is it describing destinations for non-returners; this is a false equivalency between the descriptors employed in either case (Nikaya v Pure Land), and is misleading.


The Pure Abodes do seem to crop up in a number of suttas - here's another:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html


Pure Abodes are for non-returners.

Please find any Pure Land Sutra, and show us what the requirements are for entry. We can then compare that to the qualities of a non-returner.

For example:

Shorter Sukhāvatīvyūha Sūtra wrote:Pure Land Rebirth Mantra:

namo amitābhāya tathāgatāya tadyathā
amṛtod bhave amṛta siddhaṃ bhave
amṛta vikrānte amṛta vikrānta gāmini
gagana kīrta-kāre svāhā

For one who recites this mantra, Amitābha Buddha will constantly abide at the crown of the head, and after dying, he or she will be assigned this rebirth.


v

e.g. SN 22.89

I fail to see any similarity.



The similarity would be the goal - reaching the Pure Abodes. But clearly the methodologies are very different.

Broadening it out you could say the similarity of all Buddhist traditions is the goal - enlightenment. But again the methodologies of the various traditions are very different.
As for legitimacy I assume all practitioners would regard their own tradition and methodology as legitimate - it seems quite subjective to me.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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Disciple
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Disciple » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:21 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Zom wrote:No. Because there is no omnipresent Buddha Amitabha, who hears your prayers and invites you to be reborn in pure-land-buddha-heaven. End of story 8-)


Party-pooper. :tongue:

Omnipresent Buddha -- no; but how about a deva hearing some prayers and inviting people to his deva realm, perhaps nimmanarati-devas or paranimmita-vasavatti devas? Could that be possible?


Amitabha Buddha isn't a deva.

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Aloka
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Aloka » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:21 am

Disciple wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:
Zom wrote:No. Because there is no omnipresent Buddha Amitabha, who hears your prayers and invites you to be reborn in pure-land-buddha-heaven. End of story 8-)


Party-pooper. :tongue:

Omnipresent Buddha -- no; but how about a deva hearing some prayers and inviting people to his deva realm, perhaps nimmanarati-devas or paranimmita-vasavatti devas? Could that be possible?


Amitabha Buddha isn't a deva.


This is what it says in the Buddhist Studies section at Buddhanet...


Who is Amitabha?

According to Mahayana Buddhist sutras he was a king in the remote period of time. Renouncing his kingdom, he became a monk and was named Dharmakara, which means 'Treasury of Dharma'. Inspired by the teachings of the then Buddha of that time, Lokesvaraja Buddha, who taught him the way to supreme enlightenment many aeons ago, he made forty eight great vows for the saving of the sentient beings. The Eighteenth Vow, which is the basis of the Pure Land, ran like this: 'If upon the attainment of Buddhahood all sentient beings in the ten quarters who aspire in sincerity and faith to be reborn in my land, recite my name up to ten times and fail to be born there, then may I not attain the Perfect Enlightenment…'

Since then, the Bodhisattva Dharmakara, after five aeons of self-cultivation, finally attained the Supreme Enlightenment and became the Buddha Amitabha. This means that his grand and infinitely compassionate vow is now a reality, the paradise known as Pure Land or Sukhavati has been established, suffering beings must and will be delivered if only they will have the full faith to call upon his name.

Calling the Buddha's name with full faith is known to the Chinese as 'NIEN-FWO' meaning 'Prayer-recitation'. The Japanese term for this practice is known as 'Nembutsu'. In this practice three important qualities must be present in the mind: Sincerity, Faith and Aspiration to be reborn in the Pure Land. The simple prayer or formula that one needs to repeat is:

"NAMO O-MI-TO FWO"

One may repeat it in Sanskrit 'Namo Amitabha Buddha' which literally mans 'Homage to the Amitabha Buddha ' or 'I seek refuge in the Amitabha Buddha'.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/amithaba-txt.htm



:coffee:

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Disciple » Sun Jun 01, 2014 8:56 am

Amitabha's Sukhavati buddhafield is a place where ordinary beings can go and attain enlightenment. Not a place where people can go to enjoy sensual pleasures for all of eternity like in the Abrahamic faiths. That's how may it seem like on a superficial level but it's certainly not the case. This is the reason why Pure Land hasn't become very popular in the west, it reminds them too much of their former religion of Christianity.

Buddhafields of Mahayana are a lot like the pure abodes found in your own tradition.

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby daverupa » Sun Jun 01, 2014 2:02 pm

Disciple wrote:Buddhafields of Mahayana are a lot like the pure abodes found in your own tradition.


Not at all, as already discussed, above.

Trying to draw this similarity is an odd strategy, in any event, since it implicitly acquiesces to the provenance of the Nikayic textual layers as well as the lateness of Mahayanic ideations, which is basically QED.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Awakened_Angel » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:13 am

one of tsu tzi organisationin pure land where they did a lot of dana and sila which is very praised... just rarely stress on dhamma study and mental development

that is why you see many mahayana buddhist either pray or more accurate worship buddha and amitabha as god or deity... or they converted to christianity inorder to salvage to heaven.... this is because ignorant of dhamma, though they are buddhist

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Mkoll » Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:14 am

Awakened_Angel wrote:one of tsu tzi organisationin pure land where they did a lot of dana and sila which is very praised... just rarely stress on dhamma study and mental development

that is why you see many mahayana buddhist either pray or more accurate worship buddha and amitabha as god or deity... or they converted to christianity inorder to salvage to heaven.... this is because ignorant of dhamma, though they are buddhist

I'm half-Chinese and my Chinese grandma prays to Buddha as a God. I haven't been able to tease out the intricacies of her thoughts about it as her English isn't very good and I don't speak Mandarin. I don't think she knows what kind of Buddhist she is but I think the influence of Pure Land (and Mahayana in general) has influenced Chinese folk religion which has influenced her.
Peace,
James

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Awakened_Angel » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:39 pm

Yes. Due to the fact that chinese culture n religion are intertwined.

Just recap incase any chinese here. From my own research, I notice there r four group of chinese religion/culture
Which are folklore, confuscious, taoism, buddhism.

Each affect the other. That is why u could see jade emperor with buddha. Guan di buddha. Moreover theres even wealth buddha where buddha illuminate infinite light of wealth


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