Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

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waterchan
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby waterchan » Mon May 26, 2014 3:01 pm

Dan74 wrote:This is why some languages still hold on to the Genitive case - they understood the wisdom of Mahayana masters, rather than were Mahayana masters. I guess that little word 'did' held the clue...


Ahh! Caught out by the comma!

Are you sure that Ajahn Chah "saw the wisdom" in Mahayana? Can you provide a link to a source where Ajahn Chah shows appreciation of a core Mahayana teaching like Buddha-nature, or mentions the Lotus Sutra, or the Diamond Sutra, or claims that arahants are not fully enlightened?
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby beeblebrox » Mon May 26, 2014 3:02 pm

I'd pay attention to how the Pali Canon (along with whatever else) is being studied via the five aggregates, and then focus on how the dukkha would arise or cease due to that... that should be enough.

:anjali:

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Dan74 » Mon May 26, 2014 3:09 pm

waterchan wrote:
Dan74 wrote:This is why some languages still hold on to the Genitive case - they understood the wisdom of Mahayana masters, rather than were Mahayana masters. I guess that little word 'did' held the clue...


Ahh! Caught out by the comma!

Are you sure that Ajahn Chah "saw the wisdom" in Mahayana?


http://www.buddhanet.net/bodhiny2.htm

Q: Have you ever looked at the Altar Sutra of the 6th Patriarch, Hui Neng?

Answer: Hui Neng's wisdom is very keen. It is very profound teaching,not easy for beginners to understand. But if you practise with our discipline and with patience, if you practise not-clinging, you will eventually understand. Once I had a disciple who stayed in a grass-roofed hut. It rained often that rainy season and one day a strong wind blew off half the roof. He did not bother to fix it, just let it rain in. Several days passed and I asked him about his hut. He said he was practising not-clinging. This is not-clinging without wisdom. It is about the same as the equanimity of a water buffalo. If you live a good life and live simply, if you are patient and unselfish, you will understand the wisdom of Hui Neng.


There is more in this thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7346
_/|\_

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Mkoll » Mon May 26, 2014 6:14 pm



Thanks for that link. Ven. Ajahn Chah was amazing.

Here, he says that different methods can work, but only if they hold leading to one thing in common: not clinging.

Answer: It is like going into town. One can approach from the north,from the southeast, from many roads. Often these systems just differ outwardly. Whether you walk one way or another, fast or slow, if you are mindful, it is all the same. There is one essential point that all good practice must eventually come to--not clinging. In the end, all meditation systems must be let go of. Neither can one cling to the teacher. If a system leads to relinquishment, to not clinging, then it is correct practice. You may wish to travel, to visit other teachers and try other systems.Some of you have already done so. This is a natural desire. You will find out that a thousand questions asked and knowledge of many systems will not bring you to the truth. Eventually you will get bored. You will see that only by stopping and examining your own mind can you find our what the Buddha talked about. No need to go searching outside yourself. Eventually you must return to face your own true nature. Here is where you can understand the Dhamma.
Peace,
James

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby pilgrim » Tue May 27, 2014 2:22 am

Dan74 wrote:
Q: Have you ever looked at the Altar Sutra of the 6th Patriarch, Hui Neng?

Answer: Hui Neng's wisdom is very keen. It is very profound teaching,not easy for beginners to understand. But if you practise with our discipline and with patience, if you practise not-clinging, you will eventually understand. Once I had a disciple who stayed in a grass-roofed hut. It rained often that rainy season and one day a strong wind blew off half the roof. He did not bother to fix it, just let it rain in. Several days passed and I asked him about his hut. He said he was practising not-clinging. This is not-clinging without wisdom. It is about the same as the equanimity of a water buffalo. If you live a good life and live simply, if you are patient and unselfish, you will understand the wisdom of Hui Neng.


Just 2 mins out of his life where he agreed with a snippet of Mahayana wisdom does not make him in agreement with the Pure Land practice or Mahayana. No doubt many of us would readily agree that many Mahayana teachers like the Dalai Lama have much wisdom and agree with many things they say, but that hardly means we agree with many of their doctrines.

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Dan74 » Tue May 27, 2014 2:50 am

pilgrim wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
Q: Have you ever looked at the Altar Sutra of the 6th Patriarch, Hui Neng?

Answer: Hui Neng's wisdom is very keen. It is very profound teaching,not easy for beginners to understand. But if you practise with our discipline and with patience, if you practise not-clinging, you will eventually understand. Once I had a disciple who stayed in a grass-roofed hut. It rained often that rainy season and one day a strong wind blew off half the roof. He did not bother to fix it, just let it rain in. Several days passed and I asked him about his hut. He said he was practising not-clinging. This is not-clinging without wisdom. It is about the same as the equanimity of a water buffalo. If you live a good life and live simply, if you are patient and unselfish, you will understand the wisdom of Hui Neng.


Just 2 mins out of his life where he agreed with a snippet of Mahayana wisdom does not make him in agreement with the Pure Land practice or Mahayana. No doubt many of us would readily agree that many Mahayana teachers like the Dalai Lama have much wisdom and agree with many things they say, but that hardly means we agree with many of their doctrines.


Nobody demands or even requires that you do. As long as your practice is solid, you don't have to concern yourself with what all other traditions do. Nor do they need your approval, btw.
_/|\_

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby pilgrim » Tue May 27, 2014 3:43 am

Dan74 wrote:
Nobody demands or even requires that you do. As long as your practice is solid, you don't have to concern yourself with what all other traditions do. Nor do they need your approval, btw.

Agree with you on that. But I was referring to the OP and making the point that occasional agreement by Theravada teachers does not lend the practice legitimacy.

Also, I would add that in addition to the Pure Land practices being identifiable with the corruptions mentioned in Ani sutta and the Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta, being warned against in the Ambalatthika-rahulovada Sutta, it would also fail the test of legitimacy using the criteria of the Mahapadesa sutta.

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Aloka » Tue May 27, 2014 7:43 am

Dan74 wrote:
I don't think I can say anything new on the subject, Dave. You can make a fetish out of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon, if you wish. If you did less of that and actually put them to some hardcore use, you would worry less about any discrepancy and divergence and may even begin to understand the keen wisdom of Mahayana masters, like Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Amaro and Phra Khantipalo did among many others.


Ajahn Amaro has certainly mentioned Mahayana in texts such as, for example: "Small Boat Great Mountain" which is a spin-off from a retreat in the USA which was co-taught with a Tibetan lama. Even so, I have yet to attend one of his Dhamma talks at Amaravati Monastery in which he discusses "the keen wisdom of Mahayana masters".

However, he does frequently refer to the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon in his talks.


:anjali:

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Dan74 » Tue May 27, 2014 8:40 am

Aloka wrote:
Dan74 wrote:
I don't think I can say anything new on the subject, Dave. You can make a fetish out of the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon, if you wish. If you did less of that and actually put them to some hardcore use, you would worry less about any discrepancy and divergence and may even begin to understand the keen wisdom of Mahayana masters, like Ajahn Chah, Ajahn Amaro and Phra Khantipalo did among many others.


Ajahn Amaro has certainly mentioned Mahayana in texts such as, for example: "Small Boat Great Mountain" which is a spin-off from a retreat in the USA which was co-taught with a Tibetan lama. Even so, I have yet to attend one of his Dhamma talks at Amaravati Monastery in which he discusses "the keen wisdom of Mahayana masters".

However, he does frequently refer to the Buddha's teachings in the Pali Canon in his talks.


:anjali:


Aloka, Ajahn Amaro was (is?) a formal student of Dzogchen and the book you mention is devoted in a large part to discussing Dzogchen wisdom. He opens Chapter 1 by saying:

The meeting of spiritual traditions, including that of Theravada wisdom teachings and Dzogchen, two great expressions of the Buddha-Dharma, is one of the major beneficial aspects of life in these times.
_/|\_

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Aloka » Tue May 27, 2014 9:13 am

Dan74 wrote:

Aloka, Ajahn Amaro was (is?) a formal student of Dzogchen and the book you mention is devoted in a large part to discussing Dzogchen wisdom. He opens Chapter 1 by saying:

The meeting of spiritual traditions, including that of Theravada wisdom teachings and Dzogchen, two great expressions of the Buddha-Dharma, is one of the major beneficial aspects of life in these times.


Dan74,

Both Ajahn Amaro and Tsoknyi Rinpoche were obviously studying each others teachings when doing a co-retreat together in the USA and naturally they would be complimentary towards each other. However,this doesn't necessarily make Ajahn Amaro a long-term "formal student" of Tibetan Dzogchen. He's now living in the UK and is abbot of Amaravati monastery.

I also thought I made it clear that I wasn't talking specifically about that book (which I have myself) in my previous post, nor was I forming opinions from readings on the internet, nor was I being rude to a moderator. I was commenting about my own experience from attending a number of Ajahn Amaro's teachings in the outside world, which have had no discernable connection to Mahayana/Vajrayana at all and had a lot of references to Pali Canon suttas. (and as I've mentioned before, I used to be a Vajrayana practitioner myself)

Sorry, but I'm really not interested in trying to discuss this any further with you. Trying to achieve internet "one-upmanship" doesn't appeal to me at all, (probably because I'm a woman) and we've already had too many problems trying to communicate with each other in the past.

Be well and happy,

Aloka :)
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue May 27, 2014 10:11 am

My Buddha is bigger than your Buddha????? :quote:
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby plwk » Tue May 27, 2014 10:51 am

My Buddha is bigger than your Buddha????? :quote:

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Literally... :mrgreen:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue May 27, 2014 1:15 pm

Actually, I think the biggest Buddha is a mahayana buddha statue in china!!!

http://scribol.com/anthropology-and-his ... n-earth/24
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue May 27, 2014 1:34 pm

daverupa wrote:It is not the case that Pure Land is describing jhana realms, or anything like them, nor is it describing destinations for non-returners; this is a false equivalency between the descriptors employed in either case (Nikaya v Pure Land), and is misleading.


The Pure Abodes do seem to crop up in a number of suttas - here's another:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html
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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby Dan74 » Tue May 27, 2014 1:58 pm

Aloka wrote:... nor was I being rude to a moderator.


Hi Aloka,

Dave and I have had quite a bit of to-and-fro both on fora and in PM and based on that I think of him as a thoughtful, sincere and good-natured person, and also a kalyana-mitta. Sometimes it is useful to get a bit of robust feedback and I trust that he will know if the shoe fits, and if not, forgive me for being presumptuous and stupid.

Speaking of which, reading your message gave me a profound sense of deja vu and a rude jolt realising that several years on we are still doing these rounds. Perhaps it's time I gave up on defending the Dharma and took my own advice and put more effort into practicing it, rather than stupidly engaging in this! There is plenty of info around and if people care, they can find out. Indeed, you were right!
_/|\_

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby daverupa » Tue May 27, 2014 2:50 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:It is not the case that Pure Land is describing jhana realms, or anything like them, nor is it describing destinations for non-returners; this is a false equivalency between the descriptors employed in either case (Nikaya v Pure Land), and is misleading.


The Pure Abodes do seem to crop up in a number of suttas - here's another:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nymo.html


Pure Abodes are for non-returners.

Please find any Pure Land Sutra, and show us what the requirements are for entry. We can then compare that to the qualities of a non-returner.

For example:

Shorter Sukhāvatīvyūha Sūtra wrote:Pure Land Rebirth Mantra:

namo amitābhāya tathāgatāya tadyathā
amṛtod bhave amṛta siddhaṃ bhave
amṛta vikrānte amṛta vikrānta gāmini
gagana kīrta-kāre svāhā

For one who recites this mantra, Amitābha Buddha will constantly abide at the crown of the head, and after dying, he or she will be assigned this rebirth.


v

e.g. SN 22.89

I fail to see any similarity.

---

If you want to try another method, you can try to find a place where recollection of the Buddha is stated to lead to non-return. Then all you have to do is set up the equivalency Buddha = Amitabha...

Now, perhaps, in a spirit of ecumenism and interfaith cooperation, we might play around with the idea that recollection of, say, Jesus is okay, because reason X (blah blah New Age syncretism or whatever). After all, if we're going to fit Amitabha in there, Jesus can come too, Laozi can tag along, it's all good.

I simply draw a line before letting such figures count as one-third of the Triple Gem.

---

Teachings leading to dispassion are all possibly lump-able under 'Dhamma', but this is precisely because of the Buddha Teaching His Sangha such Dhammic criteria as these.

I don't decry others their manipulations of the Dhamma in service of making them locally relevant; I do mind rebranding, misunderstanding aspects, ignoring aspects, making up aspects that do not have provenance with the historical Buddha upon whom we rely for all this... and so on.

:shrug:

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    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue May 27, 2014 3:05 pm

Everything you know and love about fundamentalist christians, just replace christian with buddhist and that about explains what goes on here!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby daverupa » Tue May 27, 2014 3:10 pm

False equivalence, with shades of ad hominem, though I can understand that reaction.

Try addressing points made, and we'll see whether this 'fundamentalism' ends up being a shrill ignoring of facts, or a calm assessment of them. I'm willing to learn, both now and earlier when I had this discussion at the other DW.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Tue May 27, 2014 3:14 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Everything you know and love about fundamentalist christians, just replace christian with buddhist and that about explains what goes on here!!!


We all have certain ideologies we become entrenched in.

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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Re: Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate?

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 27, 2014 3:17 pm

Pure Land Buddhism - Legitimate? Yes.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

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