Very good point.Budsas said: Actually, I wonder how many of us actually read the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
metta
Chris
Very good point.Budsas said: Actually, I wonder how many of us actually read the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
Metta,The seven books
The Abhidhamma Pitaka is divided into seven books, although it is the first (Dhammasangani) and last (Patthana) that together lay out the essence of Abhidhamma philosophy. The seven books are:
I. Dhammasangani ("Enumeration of Phenomena").
This book enumerates all the paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities) to be found in the world. According to one such enumeration these amount to:
52 cetasikas (mental factors), which, arising together in various combination, give rise to any one of...
...89 different possible cittas (states of consciousness)
4 primary physical elements, and 23 physical phenomena derived from them
Nibbana
English translations:
Buddhist Psychological Ethics, translated from the Pali by C.A.F. Rhys Davids (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1900).
II. Vibhanga ("The Book of Treatises").
This book continues the analysis of the Dhammasangani, here in the form of a catechism.
English translations:
The Book of Analysis, translated from the Pali by Ven. U Thittila (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1969).
III. Dhatukatha ("Discussion with Reference to the Elements").
A reiteration of the foregoing, in the form of questions and answers.
English translations:
Discourse on Elements, translated from the Pali by Ven. U Narada (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1962).
IV. Puggalapaññatti ("Description of Individuals").
Somewhat out of place in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, this book contains descriptions of a number of personality-types.
English translations:
A Designation of Human Types, translated from the Pali by B.C. Law (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1922).
V. Kathavatthu ("Points of Controversy").
Another odd inclusion in the Abhidhamma, this book contains questions and answers that were compiled by Moggaliputta Tissa in the 3rd century BCE, in order to help clarify points of controversy that existed between the various "Hinayana" schools of Buddhism at the time.
English translations:
Points of Controversy, translated from the Pali by S.Z. Aung and C.A.F. Rhys Davids (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1915).
VI. Yamaka ("The Book of Pairs").
This book is a logical analysis of many concepts presented in the earlier books. In the words of Mrs. Rhys Davids, an eminent 20th century Pali scholar, the ten chapters of the Yamaka amount to little more than "ten valleys of dry bones."
English translations:
None.
VII. Patthana ("The Book of Relations").
This book, by far the longest single volume in the Tipitaka (over 6,000 pages in the Siamese edition), describes the 24 paccayas, or laws of conditionality, through which the dhammas interact. These laws, when applied in every possible permutation with the dhammas described in the Dhammasangani, give rise to all knowable experience.
English translations:
Conditional Relations (vol I), translated from the Pali by Ven. U Narada (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1969). Part I of the Tika-patthana section of the Patthana.
Conditional Relations (vol II), translated from the Pali by Ven. U Narada (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1981). Part II of the Tika-patthana section of the Patthana.
A Guide to Conditional Relations, translated from the Pali by Ven. U Narada (Oxford: Pali Text Society, 1978). An introduction and guide to the first 12 pages (!) of the Patthana.
BudSas wrote: Actually, I wonder how many of us actually read the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
I assume you mean in full? All books have been translated by PTS, except the Yamaka. And as you noted above, Mrs. Rhys Davids calls it the "ten valleys of dry bones." Also, I have heard that the Yamaka is almost entirely repetition of some of the material in the other books.retrofuturist wrote: Well if this is current, then anyone whose only language is English will not have read the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
Setting aside the findings of scholars and such for now, has your personal reading of a decent amount of the Abhidhamma Pitaka provided you with any clues, insight, pointers, information etc. which may be relevant to the discussion?TheDhamma wrote:I have! And I like it too. The style is certainly not the same as the Suttas, but still seems to have some valuable information for analyzing and breaking down phenomena.
I occasionally browse it (we have almost the entire Tipitika in English and Thai at my local Wat). It is rather dense, but there is some interesting analysis of causation.TheDhamma wrote:I have! And I like it too. The style is certainly not the same as the Suttas, but still seems to have some valuable information for analyzing and breaking down phenomena.BudSas wrote: Actually, I wonder how many of us actually read the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
The style is certainly different from what is found in the other two pitakas, but then again the Vinaya is pretty different from the other two as well, except for perhaps the biographical stories in the Vinaya which is comparable to the Suttas.retrofuturist wrote: Setting aside the findings of scholars and such for now, has your personal reading of a decent amount of the Abhidhamma Pitaka provided you with any clues, insight, pointers, information etc. which may be relevant to the discussion? I assume that was the relevance of Budsas' question of "I wonder how many of us actually read the Abhidhamma Pitaka?" to the discussion, since reading something does not change its origins or 'authenticity'.
Let pick the odd one out first: How do you think of the Katthavathu of the Abhidhamma Pitaka? Do you think it's "authentic"? Do you think its contents reflecting the Abhidhamma? Do you think the explanation by Ven Buddhaghosa in the Atthasalini's Introduction on the origin of the Katthavathu credible? (that it was revealed by Ven Moggaliputta Tissa from his deep meditation ...)TheDhamma wrote:BudSas wrote: Actually, I wonder how many of us actually read the Abhidhamma Pitaka?
I have! And I like it too. The style is certainly not the same as the Suttas, but still seems to have some valuable information for analyzing and breaking down phenomena.
Hi BDS,BudSas wrote: Let pick the odd one out first: How do you think of the Katthavathu of the Abhidhamma Pitaka? Do you think it's "authentic"? Do you think its contents reflecting the Abhidhamma? Do you think the explanation by Ven Buddhaghosa in the Atthasalini's Introduction on the origin of the Katthavathu credible? (that it was revealed by Ven Moggaliputta Tissa from his deep meditation ...)
To me, in my hunble opinion, that book should be treated as one of those post-canonical texts (such as the Milindapanha, the Visuddhimagga, etc.), and I'm not convinced that it should be included in the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
(My opinion, again) No, to me it seems to be a clear example of defining what is and is not Buddhism (known then as, Dhamma, Vibhajjavada).Do you think the explanation by Ven Buddhaghosa in the Atthasalini's Introduction on the origin of the Katthavathu credible?
Thanks. Just a humble thought:TheDhamma wrote: In my opinion, I agree with you, that the Katthavathu is post-Canonical. But perhaps the entire Abhidhamma is post Canonical, much like the Commentaries. It does not appear to have been recited at the First or Second Council, but it could still be some worthy and beneficial material, in the same way that the Visuddhimagga is.
Hi all, an update to the above post of mine - I came upon a really interesting quote from commentary to Mahaparinibbana sutta - what seems interesting about it is that these appear to be the actual words of the Buddha, so not commentators nor Buddhaghosa - this quote comes from DSG post 102106:pt1 wrote:Yeah, again, the problem is how to show that? I mean, the atthasalini quote says so explicitly that abhidhamma is classified as khudaka nikaya, but if one discards atthasalini, then are there any other ancient Pali sources that say so? At the moment, I'm not familiar with any.TheDhamma wrote: By process of elimination, the best possible argument that the Abhidhamma may have been recited at the First Council would come from your no. 2 above. If it could be shown that Abhidhamma was considered a part of the Khuddaka Nikaya at that time, then the statement that the five Nikayas were recited could include the Abhidhamma.
Aside from the point that the quote again supports the classical position regarding abhidhamma, it particularly leaves me wondering how much of the commentarial materials are in fact direct quotations of the Buddha, which apparently don't appear in the suttas, and why they were not included in the suttas but left in the commentaries...From the beginning of part 6 of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, the last words of the
Buddha, transl. by Sister Vajiraa and Francis Story (BPS):
"Now, the Blessed One spoke to the venerable Aananda saying: 'It may be,
Aananda, that to some among you the thought will come: 'Ended is the word of the
Master; we have a Master no longer.' But it should not, Aananda, be so
considered. For that which I have proclaimed and made known as the Dhamma and
the Discipline, that shall be your Master when I am gone."
From the commentary to the last sentence above, taken from the beginning of Ch
VI, Commentary on the Mahaaparinibbaana Sutta, transl. by Yang-Gyu An (PTS) in
"The Buddha's Last Days":
" 'That which was taught and made known (pa~n~natta)': The Dhamma is both taught
and made known. The Vinaya is also both taught and made known. 'Made known'
means set up, established.
'That is your teacher, after I am gone': The Dhamma and the Vinaya are your
teacher after I am gone. While I remained alive, I taught you: 'This is slight
(lahuka); this is serious (garuka); this is curable (satekiccha); this is
incurable (atekiccha); this is what is to be avoided by the world (loka-vajja);
this is what is to be avoided by specific precept (pa~n~natti-vajja); this
offence (aapatti) is removable in the presence of an individual (puggala) this
offence is removable in the presence of a group (ga.na); this offence is
removable in the presence of the Order (sa"ngha).' Thus concerning the subject
matter handed down as seven groups of offences (aapatti-kkhandha), I have taught
what is called the Vinaya: the Khandhaka, the Parivaara and the two Vibha"ngas.
All of that, the basket of the Vinaya, will perform the role of Teacher for you
when I attain parinibbaana.
"And during my life, I have taught these: the four foundations of mindfulness
(satipa.t.thaana), the four right efforts (sammapphadhaana), the four roads to
supernormal power (iddhipaada), the five spiritual faculties (indriya), the five
mental powers (bala), the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjha"nga), the noble
eightfold path (magga). In various ways I have analysed these doctrinal matters
and have taught the basket of Suttanta. All of that basket of Suttanta will
peform the role of Teacher for you when I attain parinibbaana.
"And during my life, I have taught these: the five aggregates, twelve sphere
(aayatana), eighteeen elements (dhaatu), four truths (sacca), twenty-two
faculites (indriya), nine causes (hetu), four foods (aahaara), seven contacts
(phassa), seven feelings (vedanaa), seven perceptions (sa~n~naa), seven
intentions (cetanaa), seven thoughts (citta). And here too, a certain number of
things are of the sensual realm (kaamaavacara), a certain number are of the form
realm (ruupaavacara), and a ceertain number are of the formless realm
(aruupaavacara); a certain number are included (pariyaapanna), a certain number
are not included (apariyaapanna); a certain number are mundane (lokika), a
certain number are supramundane (lokuttara).
"I have analysed these things in detail and taught the Abhidhamma-pi.taka,
which is adorned by the Mahaapa.t.thaana with its countless methods and
its twenty-fourfold complete origin (samantapa.t.thaana). All of that,
the basket of the Abhidhamma, will perform the role of the Teacher for you
when I attain parinibbaana.
" Thus all of this has been told and discussed for forty-five years from my
enlightenment to my parinibbaana; three baskets, five Nikaayas, nine
branches (a"nga), eight-four thousand groups of dhamma: these are the
major divisions. Thus these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma remain.
I alone attain parinibbaana, and now I alone advise and instruct. After I
have attained parinibbaana, these eighty-four thousand groups of dhamma,
will advise and instruct you.
"Thus giving many reasons, the Blessed One advised: 'It is your Teacher after I
am gone....' "
Not necessarily. Do you know that the authors of the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts did not use these texts, or did not intend these text, to be put into practice?alan wrote:Lots of monks analyzing ideas to death instead of putting them into practice.