Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Individual
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Individual »

Anders Honore wrote: As for the Theravadin view, I don't think there's any inherent contradiction between the early sutras (that Theravada is based on) and the Mahayana view of emptiness.
I agree with this and a while ago, I compiled a short list of quotes on emptiness from the suttas to establish this point.

Phena Sutta
Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately.
Sunna Sutta
"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...

"The nose is empty...

"The tongue is empty...

"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."
Mogharaja-manava-puccha Sutta
View the world, Mogharaja,
as empty —
always mindful
to have removed any view
about self.

This way one is above & beyond death.
This is how one views the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king.
Cula-suññata Sutta
"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of village are not present. Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the perception of human being are not present. There is only this modicum of disturbance: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the perception of village. This mode of perception is empty of the perception of human being. There is only this non-emptiness: the singleness based on the perception of wilderness.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, & pure.
Maha-suññata Sutta
"But there is this (mental) dwelling discovered by the Tathagata where, not attending to any themes, he enters & remains in internal emptiness. If, while he is dwelling there by means of this dwelling, he is visited by monks, nuns, lay men, lay women, kings, royal ministers, sectarians & their disciples, then — with his mind bent on seclusion, tending toward seclusion, inclined toward seclusion, aiming at seclusion, relishing renunciation, having destroyed those qualities that are the basis for mental fermentation — he converses with them only as much is necessary for them to take their leave.
Notice the interpretation "mental" imposed on the text by the Theravadin translator.
"He attends to internal & external emptiness...
But it's not just mental, else the idea of "external emptiness" is pretty incoherent, plus obviously incorrect given the other quotes above where there isn't the explicit description that it's a strictly mental act. On the contrary, the Buddha describes reality itself as actual being empty, as emptiness being in accordance with "actuality".

So, as a very wise person and experienced meditator once said:
Element wrote:Thus form is voidness & voidness is form. If form is regarded as 'voidness', it is void. If form is regarded as 'form', merely form, it is also void. If it is void, it is free from dukkha. The efficacy of this we must understand through practise or experience. These realisations are one and the same.
And as the Heart Sutra says:
form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Element

Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Element »

Individual wrote:form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form, the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness.
:goodpost:
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

stuka wrote: Mahayana: "Everything is not inherently real". The world is a figment of your imagination.
I don't think this is accurate. According to Gelug negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. Real emptiness is beyond the four extremes hence there is no "your" or "imagination". I.e. samsara is not an 'illusion' which dissolves when 'reality' appears. The illusion/reality duality ultimately doesn't apply.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
Karunika
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Karunika »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
stuka wrote: Mahayana: "Everything is not inherently real". The world is a figment of your imagination.
I don't think this is accurate. According to Gelug negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. Real emptiness is beyond the four extremes hence there is no "your" or "imagination". I.e. samsara is not an 'illusion' which dissolves when 'reality' appears. The illusion/reality duality ultimately doesn't apply.
When discussing 'Mahayana,' it is good for everyone to remember that there are a variety of traditions and beliefs that fall within that label. It is often not accurate to sum up one belief as being 'Mahayana.' Even within Tibetan Buddhism, which is part of Mahayana, there are many different beliefs and interpretations of emptiness (among other things). Stuka's statement probably better reflects the mind-only school, but not being a student of that tradition, don't hold me to that.
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
stuka wrote: Mahayana: "Everything is not inherently real". The world is a figment of your imagination.
I don't think this is accurate. According to Gelug negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. Real emptiness is beyond the four extremes hence there is no "your" or "imagination". I.e. samsara is not an 'illusion' which dissolves when 'reality' appears. The illusion/reality duality ultimately doesn't apply.
Again, that is just an extension or exaggeration of the same thing. "Negation of inherent existence" is annihiliationism. The problem we see here is that the Buddha's phenomenological teaching of emptiness, which analyzes the way we perceive the world in order to understand the misconceptions and subsequent misery that arise through ignorance, has been misapprehended by the Mahayanists and the tibetan religions to be an existential declaration of the nature of the world itself. Unfortunately for them, such declarations, whether they claim to be on a "mundane" or an "ultimate" level, are inextricably mired in speculative view. Calling the world "samsara" as if "samsara" were a "thing", and the entire issue or question of a "illusion/reality duality", is a part of this misapprehension as well, irrelevant to what the Buddha was addressing, which was the causes and remedies for the problem of suffering.

Of course, you are always welcome to demonstrate the mundane and ultimate truth of your speculative view by banging your "non-existent" hand with a "non-existent" hammer until you and I both are convinced that there is no you, there is no hand, and there is no hammer.

I'll be sure to wear a bio-suit...
Last edited by stuka on Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

Karunika wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
stuka wrote: Mahayana: "Everything is not inherently real". The world is a figment of your imagination.
I don't think this is accurate. According to Gelug negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. Real emptiness is beyond the four extremes hence there is no "your" or "imagination". I.e. samsara is not an 'illusion' which dissolves when 'reality' appears. The illusion/reality duality ultimately doesn't apply.
When discussing 'Mahayana,' it is good for everyone to remember that there are a variety of traditions and beliefs that fall within that label. It is often not accurate to sum up one belief as being 'Mahayana.' Even within Tibetan Buddhism, which is part of Mahayana, there are many different beliefs and interpretations of emptiness (among other things). Stuka's statement probably better reflects the mind-only school, but not being a student of that tradition, don't hold me to that.
That there are many different beliefs and interpretations of sunnata in the tibetan religions clearly illustrates the fact that they are existential speculative views, rather than true understanding of the Buddha's empirical phenomenological analysis of the way we perceive (and interpret or mis-interpret) the world.

The Buddha negated such existential arguments over 2500 years ago. One has to wonder why such arguments and speculative views persist in religions that claim to be based in His teachings.
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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi »

stuka wrote: "Negation of inherent existence" is annihiliationism.
Tsongkapa would say no, because conventional existence is not negated. Which is why it hurts plenty when I hit my hand with a hammer. And which is also why negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. But ultimately there is nothing to affirm or negate.
It has been the misfortune (not, as these gentlemen think it, the glory) of this age that everything is to be discussed. Edmund Burke, Reflections on the Revolution in France.
Element

Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Element »

Theravada teaching on emptiness is straightforward & unconvoluted, which is why it comes from a perfectly fully enlightened Buddha.
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
stuka wrote: "Negation of inherent existence" is annihiliationism.
Tsongkapa would say no, because conventional existence is not negated. Which is why it hurts plenty when I hit my hand with a hammer. And which is also why negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. But ultimately there is nothing to affirm or negate.
Tsonghapa would be resorting to convoluted double-talk in order to prop up his, again, speculative (and mis-appropriated) existential view.

Watching Mahayanists and adherents of the tibetan religions discuss existential-based speculative views of 'emptiness" is like watching people argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Or whether the flat earth goes on forever, or ends in a giant waterfall. All three are equally useless and irrelevant to addressing the problem of suffering.
Individual
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Individual »

stuka wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
stuka wrote: "Negation of inherent existence" is annihiliationism.
Tsongkapa would say no, because conventional existence is not negated. Which is why it hurts plenty when I hit my hand with a hammer. And which is also why negation of inherent existence is merely conceptual emptiness. But ultimately there is nothing to affirm or negate.
Tsonghapa would be resorting to convoluted double-talk in order to prop up his, again, speculative (and mis-appropriated) existential view.

Watching Mahayanists and adherents of the tibetan religions discuss existential-based speculative views of 'emptiness" is like watching people argue over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Or whether the flat earth goes on forever, or ends in a giant waterfall. All three are equally useless and irrelevant to addressing the problem of suffering.
Papanca over sunatta is neither greater than nor lesser than papanca over the Five Skandhas, nor aversion to the previous two. :smile:
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
meindzai
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by meindzai »

If you feel like listening to Thanissaro Bhikkhu talk for about 6 hours, he has a very long (multi part, of course) talk on Emptiness from the Theravada perspective; http://audiodharma.org/talks/ThanissaroBhikkhu.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also a shorter 1 hour version - but the 6 hour one covers a LOT of territory, including the Mahayana perspective. Or, probably better said, a Theravadans perspective of the Mahayana perspective. The Theravada bias is apparent, but understandable.

An article of his is here --> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... iness.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
which covers a lot of the same territory, but doesn't go into the whole Nagarjuna/Mahayana etc. thing.

Personally, if I'm talking to a mahayanist or zennie friend, I just set my internal mental babelfish to translate it to "anicca, anatta, dukkha" and the conversation tends to progress pretty smoothly. "The Five Skhandas are Empty" (per the heart sutra) translates to "The Five Khandas are anicca, anatta, dukkha" which is absolutely true. When it gets sticky is when people want to talk about this myserious animal called "reality," at which point I try to quietly back out of the conversation, since the only realities I'm concerned with are dukkha and the cessation of dukkha.

-M
Element

Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Element »

meindzai wrote:When it gets sticky is when people want to talk about this myserious animal called "reality," at which point I try to quietly back out of the conversation, since the only realities I'm concerned with are dukkha and the cessation of dukkha.-M
:goodpost: The emptiness that can end dukkha plus allow harmonious & empathetic living is the genuine emptiness.
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

meindzai wrote:....since the only realities I'm concerned with are dukkha and the cessation of dukkha.

-M

:goodpost:

8-)
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by Prasadachitta »

Element wrote:
meindzai wrote:When it gets sticky is when people want to talk about this myserious animal called "reality," at which point I try to quietly back out of the conversation, since the only realities I'm concerned with are dukkha and the cessation of dukkha.-M
:goodpost: The emptiness that can end dukkha plus allow harmonious & empathetic living is the genuine emptiness.
Indeed... It is the same emptiness for each turn of the wheel. :thumbsup:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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stuka
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Re: Emptiness - mahayana and theravada

Post by stuka »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Indeed... It is the same emptiness for each turn of the wheel. :thumbsup:
The Buddha's teachings were complete and not in need of any further "improvement". The "wheel" has not stopped rolling, and has never been in any need of "re-turning".
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