the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Aloka
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote:...it is essentially, by the definitions given in this thread, an ersatz self/atman concept.
Yes and it seems similar to the idea of an "eternal soul".



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The Thinker
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by The Thinker »

tiltbillings wrote:
The Thinker wrote:Primordial Citta appears to be speculation, nothing wrong with that in itself, but it can't be identified. (not yet anyway)
There is a great deal wrong with it, given that it is essentially, by the definitions given in this thread, an ersatz self/atman concept.
All things change, this planet once was not a planet, it did not exist, I think this is the speculation that Identification is talking about, does the unseen void (force of life - life force) which our minds may not comprehend, have a primordial will to exist? We are unlikely to understand, but it may be this simple?

It will not help our suffering or extermination, and is just speculation.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by tiltbillings »

The Thinker wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
The Thinker wrote:Primordial Citta appears to be speculation, nothing wrong with that in itself, but it can't be identified. (not yet anyway)
There is a great deal wrong with it, given that it is essentially, by the definitions given in this thread, an ersatz self/atman concept.
All things change, this planet once was not a planet, it did not exist, I think this is the speculation that Identification is talking about, does the unseen void (force of life - life force) which our minds may not comprehend, have a primordial will to exist? We are unlikely to understand, but it may be this simple?

It will not help our suffering or extermination, and is just speculation.
One can certainly believe that sort of thing, but the Buddha did not teach it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by The Thinker »

Yes indeed, but he did investigate it, and came to similar conclusions, he offered a way of easing suffering in this life, he offered a peaceful rebellion to those disenchanted with the greed and craving in this life, he offered an escape an alternative way, now we may believe that the Buddha was not political, but the sangha is, without doubt, a rebellious order in the eyes of some capitalists or even communists or whatever power may be prevalent,
In 2500 years science is no closer to understanding the void or force, than the atman concept of we are it? The Buddha probably got that, but offered a moral discipline and restraint as part of the answer to a more peaceful world, that view is in total contrast to all that take the view that only the strongest survive mentality of science and modern political thought, I think Einstein realized what Buddhism had to offer that science could not, namely a way of peace.

http://www.bbncommunity.com/einstein-on-buddhism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Bakmoon »

The Thinker wrote:Yes indeed, but he did investigate it, and came to similar conclusions, he offered a way of easing suffering in this life, he offered a peaceful rebellion to those disenchanted with the greed and craving in this life, he offered an escape an alternative way, now we may believe that the Buddha was not political, but the sangha is, without doubt, a rebellious order in the eyes of some capitalists or even communists or whatever power may be prevalent,
In 2500 years science is no closer to understanding the void or force, than the atman concept of we are it? The Buddha probably got that, but offered a moral discipline and restraint as part of the answer to a more peaceful world, that view is in total contrast to all that take the view that only the strongest survive mentality of science and modern political thought, I think Einstein realized what Buddhism had to offer that science could not, namely a way of peace.

http://www.bbncommunity.com/einstein-on-buddhism/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But the Buddha rejected Atman.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
2600htz
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by 2600htz »

Hello everyone:

I wonder, among the theravada community, what are the main views into how nibbana is experienced?

eg: the person always attains cessation of perception and feeling, the person can see dependent origination, the person doesnt need to see dependent origination but the 3 marks of existence, etc.

Thanks!.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah »

My view is that it is very clear in the suttas that the buddha teaches a way to make progress towards attaining nibbana and it is very clear that he teaches that you can not explain how nibbana is experienced.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by Saoshun »

Experience of nibbana is emptiness and bliss. Indescribable that's why people either think of eternalism or nihilism when comes to explaining this. As nobody can make a color they do not know they can not experience nibbana unless they do the work and know the fruit.
Remember… the Buddha had said that everyone living in this world is crazy, by the phrase, “Sabbē prutajjana ummattakā”; excluding the Arahants, everyone else is crazy. Would you get angry if a mad person scolds? Do we get angry for a crazy thing done by a crazy person? Just think about it! :candle:
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by 2600htz »

Thank you!.

But i think i asked the wrong question:

-What lies right before attaining nibbana according to the mainstream theravada views?.

(Ex: The person right before attaining nibbana attains the cessation of perc. and feeling,
The person right before attainning nibbana sees the 3 marks of existence
The person right before attaining nibbana doesnt see anything in particular )
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by DNS »

2600htz wrote: But i think i asked the wrong question:
-What lies right before attaining nibbana according to the mainstream theravada views?.
(Ex: The person right before attaining nibbana attains the cessation of perc. and feeling,
The person right before attainning nibbana sees the 3 marks of existence
The person right before attaining nibbana doesnt see anything in particular )
From reading the Suttas and U Pandita's book and others, I believe arahants attain the goal from different ways; some through dry insight, some from jhanas and insight. The 3 marks are seen in perfect clarity, prior to that they were seen, but not fully.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by chownah »

-What lies right before attaining nibbana according to the mainstream theravada views?.
If by mainstream theravada views you mean what is found in sutta then I think that there is nothing which describes this except perhaps for the enlightenment of the buddha which I think is descrbed in some detail.
If by mainstream theravada views you mean what do most people think about this then I think that most theravadans do not think about this at all and if asked they will say they don't know.....and frankly I think that MOST theravadans would think it rather odd that you would ask such a question.
If by mainstream theravada views you mean what I think then I think it is AHA! in america and perhaps EUREKA! in ancient greece.
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by The Thinker »

What lies right before attaining nibbana according to the mainstream theravada views?.
The path the Buddha taught is what lies before, and on the whole, this leads to an honest ,thoughtful,and peaceful life (Moreso if the majority choose to live this way), it is quite literally living in the moment of now, the fruits of peace ,contentment,and understanding are the rewards, whether one achieves Nibbana or not.
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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Re: the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

Post by 2600htz »

Thank you all.

I ask mainly because of this quote (MN-111) :
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
a) There has to be a reason to enter in the cessation of perception and feeling, what is that reason?
b) There has to be a seeing of something with discernment, what is that seeing?

(and by mainstream theravada view i just mean what is mostly teached haha, i dont know if it is a topic with unanimous response)
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Re: Continuation of conciousness / awareness

Post by Sylvester »

identification wrote: By the way, the monk at the front of your profile picture, is that Somdet Phra Buddhacarya? You do know that he wrote the Tantric Theravada chant, Jinapanjara, where we visualize the Arahants and Buddha's at different energy centers, and they build a protective cage around us, yeah? Do you know why they are able to build a protective cage around us? Because their Citta's aren't dead.
If I may offer a minor correction, Somdet Toh did not write the Jinapanjara gatha, unless one were inclined to believe those shady Thai stories about how the gatha was revealed to him by a brahma who bemoaned his non-awakening due to lust...

Somdet's Toh' version that is widely circulated in Bangkok circles is the 15 verse version. The Lannas use a longer 22 verse version for exorcism rites. This gatha pre-dated Somdet Toh.

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Is Nibbana a transcendent reality, or just a state of mind?

Post by Spiny Norman »

"There is, monks, an unborn[1] — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated. If there were not that unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, there would not be the case that escape from the born — become — made — fabricated would be discerned. But precisely because there is an unborn — unbecome — unmade — unfabricated, escape from the born — become — made — fabricated is discerned.[2]"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

What do you think?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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