The word 'tathagata' is multivalent; it came to be an epithet of the Buddha, but once seems to have been used in reference to any given arahant, in some cases perhaps any given individual, which the Buddha discussed uniquely & perhaps thereby the Sangha appropriated the term. If I recall correctly, anyway, which with Pali is perhaps good, but not certain.SarathW wrote:Is Thathagata and Nibbana the same?
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I'm making an oblique reference to MN 72:Kasina wrote:The innumerable non-fires?daverupa wrote:SN 36.31 discusses three types of pleasure: sensual, non-sensual, and happiness as a result of an arahant reviewing their mind as liberated from greed/hate/delusion.
Even the positive aspects require a mind that reviews a lack: the quiescence that is nibbana. Indeed, since such a mind undergoing review is doing so via aggregates, and these are finally scattered upon the final nibbana of an arahant, truly it's the case that no predication is applicable afterwards, just as we do not speak of the innumerable non-fires which surround us.
The conversation about re-arising doesn't apply because the arahant has, with the final breakup of the aggregates, 'gone out'."If the fire burning in front of you were to go out, would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?' Thus asked, how would you reply?"
"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."
Prior to this, the aggregates were not any longer being taken up as fuel, and there was no basis for future re-becoming. But, the aggregates yet persisted, for a time.
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The positive aspects of nibbana are indeed strongly motivating, but the negative aspects are in fact what underlie the positive aspects experienced by a living arahant. I think it's a suitable emphasis to ensure that the accomplished cessation is seen to underlie that happiness, in order to guard against the possibility e.g. that a pleasant & permanent post-death state awaits an arahant, or some other such post-death formulation. Lack of such formulations is appropriate, just as lack of formulations about 'non-fires' is appropriate. Sorry to be obtuse.
And, because post-death predication of an arahant is not possible, so too care must be taken when making reference to a set of nibbanized aggregates. However, by and large I think one can simply be at ease with conventional language, using it to individuate a living arahant while simply taking care with respect to post-death scenarios.
Nibbanized aggregates - cooling embers, as it were; the living arahant, awaiting the natural run-out of the body.