A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote: On the raft subject : What are these "wrong teachings" anyway ? Surely no Buddhist monk is following any other teachings. Does the Buddha mean that some of his own teachings could be "wrong" in some sense ?
The Sutta is about the wrong interpretations of Arittha:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's park. Now on that occasion this pernicious viewpoint (ditthigata) had arisen in the monk Arittha Formerly-of-the-Vulture-Killers: "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when indulged in, are not genuine obstructions." A large number of monks heard, "They say that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in the monk Arittha Formerly-of-the-Vulture-Killers: 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when indulged in, are not genuine obstructions.'" So they went to the monk Arittha Formerly-of-the-Vulture-Killers and on arrival said to him, "Is it true, friend Arittha, that this pernicious viewpoint has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when indulged in, are not genuine obstructions'?"
It seems clear, and is spelled out in the Commentary, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... o.html#n-1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; that Arittha thought that sex was OK for a monk.

Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent, all,

As for the raft and the dhamma to be let go of, I have heard (and agree) that this refers to mental objects. So eventually one needs to let go of wholesome mindstates, let alone the unwholesome ones... thus, it is about transcending the net of kamma, and attachment to delightful mindstates, in order to attain final deliverance.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi tiltbillings,

On textual sources : Yes you are right, I will back up what I said - as far as I am able to - when each point is discussed. I am not academically trained, nor do I have any debating experience. I am not sure what constitutes a claim, can you direct me to any guidance on this point ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Manapa,

What seems like a non-buddhist understanding ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi mike,

On what the Buddha said to Vacchagotta in MN 72 : Yes you are right. That is the higher understanding expressed clearly. No puthujjana should believe anything else, but they do. Why is the main discourse about the Buddha's life leading up to his death, called the Parinibbana Sutta ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi retrofuturist,

Then all those translations which say "teachings" are wrong ? Dhamma here should be understood as mental objects. But then it would not fit the parable of the raft, because mental objects are abandoned at all stages of the path, not just at the end.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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mikenz66
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by mikenz66 »

vinasp wrote: On what the Buddha said to Vacchagotta in MN 72 : Yes you are right. That is the higher understanding expressed clearly. No puthujjana should believe anything else, but they do.
Since a puthujjana is an "uninstructed worldly person", that's hardly surprising.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... puthujjana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So what has that to do with Buddhist scholars/practitioners?
vinasp wrote: Why is the main discourse about the Buddha's life leading up to his death, called the Parinibbana Sutta ?
Because parinibbana is what happens at the end of the life of an Arahant or Buddha, according to the texts:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... bb%C4%81na" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... bb%C4%81na" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The texts don't say he "goes somewhere".

Mike
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:Then all those translations which say "teachings" are wrong ?
No, just (in my opinion) not as right as they could be.
vinasp wrote:But then it would not fit the parable of the raft, because mental objects are abandoned at all stages of the path, not just at the end.
On the earlier stages of the path, the focus is on replacing unwholesome mindstates with wholesome mindstates. These wholesome mindstates are an improvement, but are still conditioned by ignorance (think here in terms of the D.O. points you made earlier). I don't quite understand what you think doesn't fit.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi Manapa,

What seems like a non-buddhist understanding ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
Basicaly your view of the lower understanding!

you don't seam to know the difference betweeen buddhist and non-buddhist teachings, or you are trying to convince the wrong people (not saying you are trying to convince us but lack of better words)
but some of your higher understandings are off the mark with theravadin teachings.

you should try the practice
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

vinasp wrote:Hi retrofuturist,

Then all those translations which say "teachings" are wrong ? Dhamma here should be understood as mental objects. But then it would not fit the parable of the raft, because mental objects are abandoned at all stages of the path, not just at the end.

Best wishes, Vincent.
The grasp of the reft changes as the current does accross the river, their is a difference between taking one stone from a basket and taking the last stone from it (taking one stone out at a time), BTW mental objects isn't a perfect match as a translation of Dhamma.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Manapa,

Tell me what you think is wrong - one point at a time. Tell me, briefly, why you think it is wrong. Take any point first.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi mike,

MN 22 starts with a wrong understanding by a monk, that is all. It is not all about his wrong understanding. It moves on to much more important topics. What has the raft got to do with Arittha ?
Also: Are you saying that no Buddhist monk is a puthujjana ?

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

Maybe its time to change to another topic ? I am puzzled by the parable of the raft, I do not think that there is anything more that I can say, at present. On the nibbana / parinibbana topic, the only remaining point that I would like to make is this:
If parinibbana is the cessation of the aggregates, then by the higher understanding, and in the case of the Buddha, it happened on the night of his awakening.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by Cittasanto »

Enlightenment with and without fuel remaining that is the difference between the two.
This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Monks, there are these two forms of the Unbinding property. Which two? The Unbinding property with fuel remaining, & the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining.

And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.

And what is the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. For him, all that is sensed, being unrelished, will grow cold right here. This is termed the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
vinasp
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Re: A new interpretation of the Pali Canon

Post by vinasp »

Hi Manapa,

Thank you for the quotation from the Itivuttaka. I think the alternative translation by John D. Ireland ( also avilable on the same site ), would be less confusing. It has the more common renderings such as nibbana-element and residue left.
Did you post this in connection with my recent remark about parinibbana ?
Do you think it supports my position, or shows it to be wrong ?
These are my two stages of enlightenment, the first is the one which I say should be called non-returner, the second is my tathagata - full enlightenment.
Notice that both are called arahant, as is the Buddha in the first sentence. In his notes, Ireland says that the "residue" is the five aggregates.
For upaadi ; see old PTS dictionary page 149.
In MN 10.46 the Buddha says:
"Bhikkhus, if anyone should develop these four foundations of mindfulness in such a way for seven years, one of two fruits could be expected for him : either final knowledge here and now, or if there is a trace of clinging left, non-return". Bhikkhu Bodhi; Middle Length Discourses; page 155.
The "trace of clinging left" here, is I think, upaadi-sesa . ( I need to check the Pali on this point ).
But why is it mentioned in the context of the non-returner ?

Best wishes, vincent.
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