Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

[nekete]

I wonder how this position reconciles with the Ajahn Sumedho invention of the siladhara ordinations? I've not found any source that suggests these contrived, subordinated ordinations were Vinaya derived. These ordinations, and the invented "Five Points" seemed just a convenient way to ordain women with "half a loaf," and yet keep them subordinate to the Amaravati monks. Magnanimous hearts, indeed.

Better that Ajahn Sumedho apologize to Ajahn Brahm, for at least Ven. Brahm made some effort to conduct a proper Vinaya ordination of the Bhikkhunis. And, as Bhikkhu Bodhi suggested, whether these ordinations were hyper technically and legally correct ( and the scholarship states that they were), he advocates that these Bhikkhuni ordinations were consistent with the idea that in matters like these, the most compassionate and positive view be taken by the Sangha in splits of legal opinion. The Buddha saw fit to ordain women, and establish a robust Sangha and Vinaya of/for Bhikkhunis. What Ajahn Sumedho invented with the contrived siladhara ordinations strikes me as antithetical to the spirit and the law of the Dhamma and Vinaya.

And, I'd bet that if Ajahn Sumedho came to Perth, Ajahn Brahm would be the first person at the airport to greet him.

( Edit: Robert, rereading my comment, it sounds a bit snarky...it's not personal to you. The whole siladhara bit deserves some snark, IMO, but I didn't mean this to sound directed at your personal comments or you. )

No problem at all with your comments, but thanks for explaining anyway.
Now onto your points about the innovative siladhara ordination:
Sumedho took a heat from conservative Theravadans over that actually. Especially from those worried that it might be a wedge for attempts to reinstate the Bhikkhuni order. From my point of view he might have been better to try to raise the staus of meichi, but perhaps the nuns wanted to wear the dyed robes like men.

Anyway without actually breaching the Vinaya ( as far as I know) he did what he could to support women renunciates- despite the opposition from Thailand and so on.

Brahmavamso , by getting involved in Bhikkhuni ordination, something that cannot be carried out now, is going far, far beyond this and , Imho, needs to be seriously rebuked for this. As he has been. Until he rescinds and repents it is appropriate that Sumedho does not meet him.

Ajahn Brahm has behaved like a true follower of Buddha's theachings. How can you maintain these days that women in monasteries can't be in the same level as men. It's so ridicoulus.

Good for Ajahn Brahm.

[tiltbillings]

Ajahn Brahm has behaved like a true follower of Buddha's theachings. How can you maintain these days that women in monasteries can't be in the same level as men. It's so ridicoulus.

Ever so much.

Good for Ajahn Brahm.

Agreed.

[pilgrim]

Brahmavamso , by getting involved in Bhikkhuni ordination, something that cannot be carried out now, is going far, far beyond this and , Imho, needs to be seriously rebuked for this. As he has been. Until he rescinds and repents it is appropriate that Sumedho does not meet him.

These bhikkhunis have left family and property behind and ordained 6 years ago. They have probably participated in the ordination of other bhikkhunis. It is ridiculous to suggest that Ajahn Brahm rescind the ordination as if their lives can be considered so inconsequential simply to satisfy the wishes of these Ajahns. In any case there is no Vinaya provision for such an act. If this is really a prerequisite for reconciliation set down by the Ajahns, I am even more dissapointed.

But I am certain Ajahn Brahm would not do this. So do we wish to see these elderly Ajahns take this animosity to their graves?

As a layman I have had my share of quarrels and conflicts with colleagues and relatives, yet today I have no enemies. It is really not so difficult.

[cooran]

I found Bhikkhu Bodhi's response to Ajahn Brahmavamso's actions at that time, interesting:
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/08 ... -response/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris

[Mkoll]

I found Bhikkhu Bodhi's response to Ajahn Brahmavamso's actions at that time, interesting:
https://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/08 ... -response/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris

After having read that, I feel the same way. It is good to hear the opinion of a fairly neutral third party. I've never seen anything but integrity come from Ven. Bodhi and I see no reason to question his analysis, which seems sound.

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

It seems, this was a major road block to attain Arahantship.
I hope now we all can speed up the path without adding another division.


This whole thing is disturbing me.
I watched a video, that Ajahn Brahm said that he is not a Thervadist or Mhayanist!


What is Schism?

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 9831&hilit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If that is the case that the Venerable said manfully: "he is not a Thervadist or Mhayanist," I have much more respects to him than to those schismatic trojans staying under the name of Theravada and trying to attack & distort Theravada itself.


btw, what is the meaning of "another division" found in the quote above? Is the division real or not? I think he was formally divided from Ajahn Chah Forest Sangha lineage, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Brahm.

[SarathW]

If that is the case that the Venerable said manfully: "he is not a Thervadist or Mhayanist," I have much more respects to him than to those schismatic trojans staying under the name of Theravada and trying to attack & distort Theravada itself.

That is what he says, but he pretends to like a Theravada for the outside world. Many Sri Lankans thinks he is Teravada.

[Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta]

If that is the case that the Venerable said manfully: "he is not a Thervadist or Mhayanist," I have much more respects to him than to those schismatic trojans staying under the name of Theravada and trying to attack & distort Theravada itself.

That is what he says, but he pretends to like a Theravada for the outside world. Many Sri Lankans thinks he is Teravada.

Even wikipedia thinks he is still a Theravada Buddhist monk, let alone Sri Lankans

• Ajahn Brahm (born Peter Betts[1] on 7 August 1951), is a British-Australian Theravada Buddhist monk.

[Cause_and_Effect]

The resistance over bhikkhuni ordination is interesting and far from over. Accepting impermanence is a core concept of Buddhism, yet the most Theravada countries in the world have cultures the most resistant to change.

Resistance or not, you can't do things your way without agreement from everyone if you want to be legitimate.
Allowing lay women or novices who keep 10 precepts is fine and enough.
If you want to create another Bhikkhuni Sangha, that really has to be a consensus from everyone.
I have noticed in places like Australia they kowtow to local customs in everything where a monk still has to be 'a good bloke' liberal values comes with this and of course, being excommunicated (if he really has been) to fight for 'women rights' is the done thing.

Anyway they are in the middle of a big and independent country regardless and everything is via internet now so it doesn't make much difference it would seem.

[Spiny Norman]

I think Ajahn Brahm is great. I love his sense of humour.
Some of his colleagues are a bit too "serious" for my taste.