Abandoning hindrances

[tiltbillings]

The Satipatthana Sutta begins from a premise of having abandoned the hindrances, which is synonymous with jhana. So the whole process of mindfulness of body occurs within the context of jhana.

So you claim, but now take the time to show this is so by giving us a careful analysis of the part of the text to proves your point. You make a lot of claims, but I have yet to see anything substantial to back them up.

[Brizzy]

The Satipatthana Sutta begins from a premise of having abandoned the hindrances, which is synonymous with jhana. So the whole process of mindfulness of body occurs within the context of jhana.

So you claim, but now take the time to show this is so by giving us a careful analysis of the part of the text to proves your point. You make a lot of claims, but I have yet to see anything substantial to back them up.

Hi

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world."
"Satipatthana Sutta: Frames of Reference" (MN 10), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009,
There are interpretations that state "having put aside greed & distress". Either way the process really begins when the hindrances have been abandoned.........jhana.

[Brizzy]

You say you have answered my question on abandoning the hindrances. Where?
It seems you do not understand the importance of "momentary concentration" in your own technique. Without it, none of it holds together, yet as I mentioned this idea of "momentary concentation" cannot be found in the suttas.

Where? Above.

As for momentary concentration, I gave a defintion of it. This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?

Also, you spend a lot of time not answering questions put to you, which is why, in turn, I find it very difficult to put any real time in addressing your questions. You want your questions answered, you need to do a fair amount of heavy lifting, given that you are the one who has initiated this thread.

Hi

So your answer to whether "momentary concentration" exists in the suttas is???
You gave a definition of it, but that does not mean the Buddha taught it.
I think I have tried to answer all your questions within good time.
I do not understand your line...."This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?". Is this a question or a statement.

[Cittasanto]

The Satipatthana in no way supports modern techniques.

Hi Brizzy
are you going to explan this comment? it seams very relevant to the abandoning of hinderances.

Hi

The Satipatthana Sutta begins from a premise of having abandoned the hindrances, which is synonymous with jhana. So the whole process of mindfulness of body occurs within the context of jhana.

Can you provide references to this? Jhanas are not developed before midfulness in my understanding, and the foundations are at times said to be one and the same as the jhana levels but that doesn't mean mindfulness is a secondry development, or a second pase of the practice, which would go against the suttas I know.

[tiltbillings]

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world."
"Satipatthana Sutta: Frames of Reference" (MN 10), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009,
There are interpretations that state "having put aside greed & distress". Either way the process really begins when the hindrances have been abandoned.........jhana.:

Not really. What in this paragraph suggest samadhi/jhana?

I think I have tried to answer all your questions within good time.

Not at all.

I do not understand your line...."This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?". Is this a question or a statement.

Given that is a question mark at the end, that usually indicates a question.

Let me put the two sentences together: Momentary concentration is nothing more than the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they naturally rise and fall. This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?

[Brizzy]

Manapa wrote:-
"Can you provide references to this? Jhanas are not developed before midfulness in my understanding, and the foundations are at times said to be one and the same as the jhana levels but that doesn't mean mindfulness is a secondry development, or a second pase of the practice, which would go against the suttas I know."
Hi
Yes I could have worded it better. Obviously mindfulness is always first, and in abandoning the hindrances mindfulness is paramount. I should have said Satipatthana begins by abandoning the hindrances from where the four foundations via the jhanas can be discerned. you seem to know your suttas, so as it is late I wont give references (unless somebody insists )

[Brizzy]

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world."
"Satipatthana Sutta: Frames of Reference" (MN 10), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, June 7, 2009,
There are interpretations that state "having put aside greed & distress". Either way the process really begins when the hindrances have been abandoned.........jhana.:

Not really. What in this paragraph suggest samadhi/jhana?

"putting aside greed & distress" this is synonymous to jhana.

I think I have tried to answer all your questions within good time.

Not at all.

Ok

I do not understand your line...."This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?". Is this a question or a statement.

Given that is a question mark at the end, that usually indicates a question.

Let me put the two sentences together: Momentary concentration is nothing more than the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they naturally rise and fall. This is not something you experience when attending to the rise and fall of experience?

I still dont understand. A question mark does indeed indicate a question, but what exactly is the question? You begin your sentence with "This" this is definitive not questioning.
You also ignore any sutta references to "momentary concentration", could this be because there are'nt any?

[tiltbillings]

I should have said Satipatthana begins by abandoning the hindrances from where the four foundations via the jhanas can be discerned.

Not that you have shown.

you seem to know your suttas, so as it is late I wont give references (unless somebody insists)

References are required if you hope to make a reasoned argument for your position.

[Cittasanto]

so as it is late I wont give references (unless somebody insists )

well it would be nice to see where this interpretation comes from, as it may add to understanding yor point of view, this is generally why refeences are asked for!

[tiltbillings]

I still dont understand. A question mark does indeed indicate a question, but what exactly is the question? You begin your sentence with "This" this is definitive not questioning.

Actually, it is a question, and a perfectly fine one, at that. One could state: This is not true. Or one could ask: This is not true?

You also ignore any sutta references to "momentary concentration", could this be because there are'nt any?

So, my question still stands: You do not experience "the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas that comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they - dhammas - naturally rise and fall?"

The teachnical, term momentary concentration, is not a sutta term, but it describes what the suttas I have already quoted indicate: "the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they - dhammas - naturally rise and fall."

[tiltbillings]

Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html

.

[mikenz66]

The Satipatthana Sutta begins from a premise of having abandoned the hindrances, which is synonymous with jhana. So the whole process of mindfulness of body occurs within the context of jhana.

There are several ways for dealing with the hindrances in the Suttas, not just jhana, as pointed out by the Commentary:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... l#synopsis

"Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya].

Mike

[Brizzy]

Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html

.

Hi
Again this is not sutta material

[Brizzy]

I still dont understand. A question mark does indeed indicate a question, but what exactly is the question? You begin your sentence with "This" this is definitive not questioning.

Actually, it is a question, and a perfectly fine one, at that. One could state: This is not true. Or one could ask: This is not true?

You also ignore any sutta references to "momentary concentration", could this be because there are'nt any?

So, my question still stands: You do not experience "the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas that comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they - dhammas - naturally rise and fall?"

The teachnical, term momentary concentration, is not a sutta term, but it describes what the suttas I have already quoted indicate: "the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they - dhammas - naturally rise and fall."

Hi
I am really sorry, I still dont know what your question is.
Also you seem quite blaize about "momentary concentration" not being mentioned in the suttas, one would expect it to be there if it mattered.

[Brizzy]

so as it is late I wont give references (unless somebody insists )

well it would be nice to see where this interpretation comes from, as it may add to understanding yor point of view, this is generally why refeences are asked for!

Hi

I will try to spend time on them this weekend, ... [edit by moderator to keep msg in line with TOS]

[tiltbillings]

I am really sorry, I still dont know what your question is.

Which seems to suggests you do not really know what momentary concentration is. "..."the ability to maintain a high degree of concentrated, non-distracted awareness of whatever dhammas comes into awareness: in the seen, just the seen, etc, as they - dhammas - naturally rise and fall." Not part of your experience?

Also you seem quite blaize about "momentary concentration" not being mentioned in the suttas,

That is odd statement. You keep asking me what it is and where in the suttas it is, and I dutifully answer.

one would expect it to be there if it mattered.

It is there. It simply is not called by that name, given that the term "momentary concentration" is a later coinage, but not the idea: "in the seen just the seen, etc."

I should have said Satipatthana begins by abandoning the hindrances from where the four foundations via the jhanas can be discerned.

Not that you have shown.

Do show us how that parapraph you quoted from the Satipatthana Sutta supports your contention.

[tiltbillings]

Whereas the sequence of training undertaken by the samathayanika meditator is unproblematic, the vipassanayanika's approach presents the difficulty of accounting for the concentration he uses to provide a basis for insight. Concentration is needed in order to see and know things as they are, but without access concentration or jhana, what concentration can he use? The solution to this problem is found in a type of concentration distinct from the access and absorption concentrations pertaining to the vehicle of serenity, called "momentary concentration" (khanika samadhi). Despite its name, momentary concentration does not signify a single moment of concentration amidst a current of distracted thoughts, but a dynamic concentration which flows from object to object in the ever-changing flux of phenomena, retaining a constant degree of intensity and collectedness sufficient to purify the mind of the hindrances. Momentary concentration arises in the samathayanika simultaneously with his post-jhanic attainment of insight, but for the vipassanayanika it develops naturally and spontaneously in the course of his insight practice without his having to fix the mind upon a single exclusive object. Thus the follower of the vehicle of insight does not omit concentration altogether from his training, but develops it in a different manner from the practitioner of serenity. Without gaining jhana he goes directly into contemplation on the five aggregates and by observing them constantly from moment to moment acquires momentary concentration as an accompaniment of his investigations. This momentary concentration fulfills the same function as the basic jhana of the serenity vehicle, providing the foundation of mental clarity needed for insight to emerge.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el351.html

.

Hi
Again this is not sutta material

It is, however, not out of line with the sutta material.

[Brizzy]

Hi tiltbillings

I swore off posting on this forum, because of the countless and ridiculous editing of my posts............so here I am back again.

You say that momentary concentration is not out of line with the suttas. Where in the four Nikayas, the real heart of the Buddhas teachings, is momentary concentration taught? Please, please, please give me references and I promise I will rush off to read them.

Metta

(If its not in the Nikayas - its not the Dhamma)

I am thinking of making this my signature. What do you think?