How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
pegembara
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by pegembara »

Kare wrote:If anything should make me believe in rebirth, it must be this eternal rebirth-debate, which seems to be eternally reborn whenever buddhists meet! :lol:

But the debate is confusing two very different issues and mixing them up.

The first of these issues is: Does rebirth occur?
The second is: Did the Buddha believe in rebirth?
The third is: Is the teaching of rebirth necessary for Buddhism?
Just my view
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 583#p36051" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by pegembara »

enkidu wrote:
I don't see how eliminating karma and rebirth leaves a practical eightfold path to liberation, or a comprehensible set of four noble truths and am more than a little curious how any such system may retain the label "buddhism."

Thanks.
Karma is essential, rebirth not. It is also clear that Buddha had a cosmic view but did not consider it essential to liberation.He only taught about suffering and how to end it ie. Noble 8FP and 4NT.

Ven. Susima heard that "A large number of monks, it seems, have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world."'" Then Ven. Susima went to those monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to them, "Is it true, as they say, that you have declared final gnosis in the Blessed One's presence: 'We discern that "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world"'?"

"Yes, friend."

"Then, having known thus, having seen thus, do you recollect your manifold past lives i.e., one birth, two births, three births, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand births, many aeons of cosmic contraction, many aeons of cosmic expansion, many aeons of cosmic contraction & expansion, 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here'?"

"No, friend."

"So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

Susima Sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


The Buddha himself attained 3 knowledges on the night of his enlightenment which is clearly different from the above description

"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by pegembara on Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Kare
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by Kare »

enkidu wrote:
Kare wrote: So - back to the first question: Does rebirth occur? I do not think so - but I also consider the question to be of little importance.
Is there an unbroken lineage that holds this view?
Where did the Buddha say: "Leave your thinking to the unbroken lineage!"?
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enkidu
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by enkidu »

Kare wrote:
enkidu wrote:
Kare wrote: So - back to the first question: Does rebirth occur? I do not think so - but I also consider the question to be of little importance.
Is there an unbroken lineage that holds this view?
Where did the Buddha say: "Leave your thinking to the unbroken lineage!"?
Thank you.
enkidu
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by enkidu »

pegembara wrote:
enkidu wrote:
I don't see how eliminating karma and rebirth leaves a practical eightfold path to liberation, or a comprehensible set of four noble truths and am more than a little curious how any such system may retain the label "buddhism."

Thanks.
Karma is essential, rebirth not.
Thank you for those quotations, though through my ignorance I fail to see how they address whether rebirth is essential to the Buddha's teaching.

Is the teaching on dependent origination not essential? Is rebirth not essential to the teaching on dependent origination?
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Kare
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by Kare »

enkidu wrote: Is the teaching on dependent origination not essential? Is rebirth not essential to the teaching on dependent origination?
Yes, the teaching on dependent origination is essential.

And no, rebirth is not essential to the teaching on dependent origination. Read for instance the book "Paticcasamuppada. Practical dependent origination", by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu.
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enkidu
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by enkidu »

Kare wrote:
enkidu wrote: Is the teaching on dependent origination not essential? Is rebirth not essential to the teaching on dependent origination?
Yes, the teaching on dependent origination is essential.

And no, rebirth is not essential to the teaching on dependent origination. Read for instance the book "Paticcasamuppada. Practical dependent origination", by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu.
Thank you for the reference point. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's astonishingly novel interpretation of the Buddha's teaching is not for me.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by tiltbillings »

enkidu wrote:
Kare wrote:
enkidu wrote: Is the teaching on dependent origination not essential? Is rebirth not essential to the teaching on dependent origination?
Yes, the teaching on dependent origination is essential.

And no, rebirth is not essential to the teaching on dependent origination. Read for instance the book "Paticcasamuppada. Practical dependent origination", by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu.
Thank you for the reference point. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's astonishingly novel interpretation of the Buddha's teaching is not for me.
Or me.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
enkidu wrote: Thank you for the reference point. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's astonishingly novel interpretation of the Buddha's teaching is not for me.
Or me.
I think he was a Great Trickster. I use the word trickster in it's positive ancient sense.
Last edited by pink_trike on Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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tiltbillings
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
enkidu wrote: Thank you for the reference point. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's astonishingly novel interpretation of the Buddha's teaching is not for me.
Or me.
I think he was a Great Trickster. I use the word trickster in it's ancient traditional sense.
Actually, the problem is likely less Buddhadasa, than his overly zealous followers whose portrayal of Buddhadasa's POV becomes absolutistic. On the other hand, there are better Dhamma teachers out there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
pegembara
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by pegembara »

enkidu wrote:
pegembara wrote:
enkidu wrote:
I don't see how eliminating karma and rebirth leaves a practical eightfold path to liberation, or a comprehensible set of four noble truths and am more than a little curious how any such system may retain the label "buddhism."

Thanks.
Karma is essential, rebirth not.
Thank you for those quotations, though through my ignorance I fail to see how they address whether rebirth is essential to the Buddha's teaching.

Is the teaching on dependent origination not essential? Is rebirth not essential to the teaching on dependent origination?

So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

The monks above had no knowledge of rebirths or past life and yet became enlightened through insight meditation. Knowledge of past lives etc can occur to some meditators who do deep samatha/concentration but whether they are "true" or not is anyone's guess. If you listen to Ajahn Brahmavamso he has no doubt about it. The Buddha's teachings are all experiential and needs no external confirmation. It is timeless and is to be experienced by oneself.

When he first gained enlightenment he was reluctant to teach as the Dhamma is hard to see except by those with little dust in their eyes. He also said he taught only what was needed to end suffering comparing his teachings to a handful of leaves compared to all the leaves in the forest which was his total knowledge. This handful is just the 8 Noble Path.

The teaching on dependent origination is really the teaching on kamma which is Right View under the 8NP.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Kare
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by Kare »

OK, I understand that all of you have read Buddhadasas book on Paticcasamuppada, and you reject his views on Dependent origination. Can you please tell me exactly where his interpretation of the Paticcasamuppada goes wrong?
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mikenz66
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Kare,

Here's some discussion:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 11&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
enkidu
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by enkidu »

pegembara wrote:
enkidu wrote: Thank you for those quotations, though through my ignorance I fail to see how they address whether rebirth is essential to the Buddha's teaching.
So just now, friends, didn't you make that declaration without having attained any of these Dhammas?"

"We're released through discernment, friend Susima."

The monks above had no knowledge of rebirths or past life and yet became enlightened through insight meditation. Knowledge of past lives etc can occur to some meditators who do deep samatha/concentration but whether they are "true" or not is anyone's guess. If you listen to Ajahn Brahmavamso he has no doubt about it. The Buddha's teachings are all experiential and needs no external confirmation. It is timeless and is to be experienced by oneself.
Thank you for the clarification. I understand now what you were getting at, that rebirth has been shown to be inessential to the liberation of at least one set of realizers.
Kare wrote:OK, I understand that all of you have read Buddhadasas book on Paticcasamuppada, and you reject his views on Dependent origination. Can you please tell me exactly where his interpretation of the Paticcasamuppada goes wrong?
I lack the intelligence and eloquence to refute Buddhadasa properly, though I rejoice that you like the monks in pegembara's quote find rebirth to be inessential to following the Buddha's teaching to its fruition. My mind is far too feeble to make sense of the suffering nature of Samsara, karma and dependent origination without rebirth.

I will say this though: I do not hold that rebirth violates anatta.
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catmoon
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Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Post by catmoon »

I would like to try to focus this discussion about how far you can strip down Buddhism.

For instance, the Soto Zen people have apparently demonstrated that you can have a perfectly functional version of Buddhism without rebirth doctrine. Further, Bhikku Bodhi has pointed out that
Bhikku Bodhi wrote: "The Buddha himself does not try to found ethics on the ideas of kamma and rebirth, but uses a purely naturalistic type of moral reasoning that does not presuppose personal survival or the working of kamma. The gist of his reasoning is simply that we should not mistreat others — by injuring them, stealing their belongings, exploiting them sexually, or deceiving them — because we ourselves are averse to being treated in such ways."
{as quoted on Buddha Forum}

So between these two points, it looks clear that Buddhist ethics can exist independently of rebirth doctrine and possibly karma doctrine too.

Which leaves me wondering : How would the abandonment of the concept of karma affect Buddhist ethics? Was Bhikku Bodhi correct, will the ethics stand without karma? Does a practice require more than Buddhist ethics to be called Buddhism?
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