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How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:39 am
by catmoon
MOD NOTE - Originally split from http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2561" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism) - Thanks. Retro. :)

I know of some people who have gone all the way back to the 4NT and 8FP and rejected everything that came after. Their version of Buddhism has no rebirth, no karma, no tantra work, no prayers, rituals or statuary. Unfortunately they are kind of tactless which has resulted in them being kicked off almost every respectable Buddhist board.

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 am
by DNS
catmoon wrote:I know of some people who have gone all the way back to the 4NT and 8FP and rejected everything that came after. Their version of Buddhism has no rebirth, no karma, no tantra work, no prayers, rituals or statuary. Unfortunately they are kind of tactless which has resulted in them being kicked off almost every respectable Buddhist board.
Well, that would mean they really didn't understand the 4NT & 8FP. Because the 4NT & 8FP includes samma-ditthi, Right Understanding, which includes rebirth, anatta, anicca, etc. and those other things that they "rejected."

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:02 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings,

(Presumably) knowing the people Catmoon is referring to, they accept the Pali suttas, but may interpret them in ways that deviate from mainstream Theravada interpretations of the Pali Canon. Interestingly, it was from one of those people that I found out about this Ajahn Sujato's article in the first place.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:36 am
by catmoon
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

(Presumably) knowing the people Catmoon is referring to, they accept the Pali suttas, but may interpret them in ways that deviate from mainstream Theravada interpretations of the Pali Canon. Interestingly, it was from one of those people that I found out about this Ajahn Sujato's article in the first place.

Anyway...

:focus:

Metta,
Retro. :)
It is so. :focus:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:37 am
by Paññāsikhara
TheDhamma wrote:
catmoon wrote:I know of some people who have gone all the way back to the 4NT and 8FP and rejected everything that came after. Their version of Buddhism has no rebirth, no karma, no tantra work, no prayers, rituals or statuary. Unfortunately they are kind of tactless which has resulted in them being kicked off almost every respectable Buddhist board.
Well, that would mean they really didn't understand the 4NT & 8FP. Because the 4NT & 8FP includes samma-ditthi, Right Understanding, which includes rebirth, anatta, anicca, etc. and those other things that they "rejected."
:goodpost:

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:04 am
by catmoon
Paññāsikhara wrote:
TheDhamma wrote:
catmoon wrote:I know of some people who have gone all the way back to the 4NT and 8FP and rejected everything that came after. Their version of Buddhism has no rebirth, no karma, no tantra work, no prayers, rituals or statuary. Unfortunately they are kind of tactless which has resulted in them being kicked off almost every respectable Buddhist board.
Well, that would mean they really didn't understand the 4NT & 8FP. Because the 4NT & 8FP includes samma-ditthi, Right Understanding, which includes rebirth, anatta, anicca, etc. and those other things that they "rejected."
:goodpost:

I feel compelled to play devils advocate. They have rationalizations around all those problems. Such as, they claim the term "rebirth" has been broadly mistranslated and it refers to events on a tiny timescale.

I cannot dismiss them as lightly as you do, although I do in fact dismiss them.

BTW I would like to know if references to rebirth, non self and so on occur in earliest versions of the 8FP? Would that be hard to find out?

It's all somewhat relevant I think, since it relates to just how far one can go in stripping practice to the bare essentials. Maybe we can set a reasonable lower boundary on that.

Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:08 am
by pink_trike
I once heard a very respected teacher (in the Tibetan tradition) say that the whole of the Buddha's teachings are contained within the 4NT/8FP if one understands them deeply and completely. In my understanding, he was saying that everything else is commentary on these and that the longer we study commentary, practice, and contemplate the full experiential (non-conceptual) meaning of the 4NT/8FP the more evident this becomes. This has been my experience over the years...they continue to unpack themselves the longer I study commentary, receive teachings, and practice.

There are also what's known as "essence" teachings in the Tibetan tradition that consists of 1 or 2 stanza summations of the entirety of the teachings. One that I have a very strong connection to is just 5 lines long. Most essence teachings aren't released to beginners and are considered "inner" or "secret" because the essence can't easily be grasped by people who are new to the path...the simplicity causes confusion and overwhelms an untrained mind. But once one has a certain amount of knowledge and awareness of the nature of mind these essence teachings deliver themselves "unpacked" for a wallop of concentrated realization that "nail" the meaning to awareness. This suggests to me that it's reasonable to assume that the 4NT and 8FP may also be regarded as essence teachings of a particular sort, but they are approached differently than the more explicit Tibetan essence teachings...they are used to kickoff the path and are gradually unpacked with additional study and practice. It doesn't make sense to me that they would be incomplete.

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:12 am
by tiltbillings
catmoon wrote:
BTW I would like to know if references to rebirth, non self and so on occur in earliest versions of the 8FP? Would that be hard to find out?
The Chapter of the Eights is considered the oldest chapter of the Suttanipata which is considered the oldest text of the Sutta Pitaka, no Noble Eightfold Path found there. You might want to start your investigation there.

As for the persons who dismiss literal rebirth, trying to turn any mention of rebirth in the suttas into some sort of figurative speech, they do not show very good scholarship, nor do they really make any sense out of the Buddha's teachings.

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:06 am
by DNS
catmoon wrote: BTW I would like to know if references to rebirth, non self and so on occur in earliest versions of the 8FP? Would that be hard to find out?
It's all somewhat relevant I think, since it relates to just how far one can go in stripping practice to the bare essentials. Maybe we can set a reasonable lower boundary on that.
There are numerous places where rebirth and anatta are referred to in the first four Nikayas, which are considered as authentic and pre-sectarian by perhaps everyone.
"He recalls to mind his various temporary states in days gone by – one birth, or two or three or
four or five births, 10 or 20, 30 or 50, a 100 or a 1,000 or a 100,000 births, through many cycles
of cosmic contraction and cosmic expansion . . . Now there comes a time, when sooner or later,
after the lapse of a long, long period of contraction, this world-system passes away. And when
this happens beings have mostly been re-born in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell
made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, dwelling in
glory; and thus they remain for a long, long period of time. Now there comes also a time,
friends, when sooner or later, this universe begins to re-evolve by expansion." (The Buddha,
Brahmajala Sutta, Digha Nikaya, Sutta Pitaka)
Yet, there is a controversy among some, if the Buddha actually taught rebirth. :thinking: :tongue:

Here is one of the places where the 8FP is discussed in the Samyutta Nikaya:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:53 am
by Paññāsikhara
tiltbillings wrote:
catmoon wrote:
BTW I would like to know if references to rebirth, non self and so on occur in earliest versions of the 8FP? Would that be hard to find out?
The Chapter of the Eights is considered the oldest chapter of the Suttanipata which is considered the oldest text of the Sutta Pitaka, no Noble Eightfold Path found there. You might want to start your investigation there.

As for the persons who dismiss literal rebirth, trying to turn any mention of rebirth in the suttas into some sort of figurative speech, they do not show very good scholarship, nor do they really make any sense out of the Buddha's teachings.
Though, from memory, it does mention the state of "not coming again to the womb" as the goal.
And, that in which one is "not seen by the King of Death".

Re: Call to arms for reasoned & critical perspective on Buddhism

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:12 am
by tiltbillings
Paññāsikhara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
catmoon wrote:
BTW I would like to know if references to rebirth, non self and so on occur in earliest versions of the 8FP? Would that be hard to find out?
The Chapter of the Eights is considered the oldest chapter of the Suttanipata which is considered the oldest text of the Sutta Pitaka, no Noble Eightfold Path found there. You might want to start your investigation there.

As for the persons who dismiss literal rebirth, trying to turn any mention of rebirth in the suttas into some sort of figurative speech, they do not show very good scholarship, nor do they really make any sense out of the Buddha's teachings.
Though, from memory, it does mention the state of "not coming again to the womb" as the goal.
And, that in which one is "not seen by the King of Death".
Sort of blows up the "figurative speech" crowd's arguments.

Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:40 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,

Agreed, with the exception of "not seen by the King of Death" which I think it very amenable to a momentary birth/death explanation.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:55 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Agreed, with the exception of "not seen by the King of Death" which I think it very amenable to a momentary birth/death explanation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I don't think so. The problem is that these texts appear within a cultural context. "Seen by the King of Death" is likely an idiom, in an idiom rich language, meaning having literally died.

Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:06 am
by James the Giant
How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?
Nichiren Buddhists strip the Buddhas' teachings right back to one single line of the Lotus Sutra where it says something like "if a person even says one word of the Lotus Sutra, they are destined to attain Buddhahood."

No Four Noble Truths, no Eight-fold Path, no precepts, no meditation, no nuthin'. Just chanting Nam Myo Ho Renge Kyo. (The title of the Lotus Sutra)
Okay, there is more, but it all comes down to chanting really.

Re: How far back can you strip the Buddha's teachings?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:07 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Agreed, with the exception of "not seen by the King of Death" which I think it very amenable to a momentary birth/death explanation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
I don't think so. The problem is that these texts appear within a cultural context. "Seen by the King of Death" is likely an idiom, in an idiom rich language, meaning having literally died.
That wouldn't make sense though in this sort of context...

http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/K ... np2-10.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Rouse yourself! Sit up! What good is there in sleeping? For those afflicted by disease (suffering), struck by the arrow (craving), what sleep is there?
"Rouse yourself! Sit up! Resolutely train yourself to attain peace.[1] Do not let the king of death,[2] seeing you are careless, lead you astray and dominate you.

"Go beyond this clinging,[3] to which devas and men are attached, and (the pleasures) they seek. Do not waste your opportunity. When the opportunity has passed they sorrow when consigned to Niraya-hell.

"Negligence is a taint, and so is the (greater) negligence growing from it. By earnestness and understanding withdraw the arrow (of sensual passions)."

-- vv. 331-334

Notes

[1] "Peace" is a synonym for Nibbana, the final goal. [Go back]
[2] The king of death (maccuraja), or Mara (death), is the personification of everything that binds us to this world and prevents the gaining of deliverance. [Go back]
[3] This clinging to pleasures of the senses. [Go back]
That said, I'm mindful of us keeping on topic, lest we end up with more split topics.

Metta,
Retro. :)