What is right view?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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catmoon
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Re: What is right view?

Post by catmoon »

Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.


When I need right view, I just close my left eye. Works great.
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is right view?

Post by tiltbillings »

catmoon wrote:Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.


When I need right view, I just close my left eye. Works great.
For me it is closing my right eye. While it can be important carefully understand what is entailed in Right View, "Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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catmoon
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Re: What is right view?

Post by catmoon »

OMG he's got Left View! Burn the witch!!!!
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is right view?

Post by tiltbillings »

catmoon wrote:OMG he's got Left View! Burn the witch!!!!
No, no, no. The witch would be my wife and no one is burning her, but Left View might explain why I like Keith Olbermann rather than that relentless whack-job Glenn Beck.

As for my right eye, in a couple years the cataract will be bad enough to be removed and with a lens replacement, I have very good vision in that eye. Things change.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Post by nowheat »

catmoon wrote:Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.
We do, don't we? It seems to me there's really only one truly right view, and that's what you see when you see the dhamma; it's the one that gets you there; it's the only one that really matters. Any lower levels of views are just steps on the way, they aren't the true view. And that view is the viewless view, the one that doesn't cling to anything unverifiable by direct insight (and even there keeps an open mind).

:namaste:
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Prasadachitta
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Re: What is right view?

Post by Prasadachitta »

nowheat wrote:
catmoon wrote:Sometimes I think u guyz overcomplicate things.
We do, don't we? It seems to me there's really only one truly right view, and that's what you see when you see the dhamma; it's the one that gets you there; it's the only one that really matters. Any lower levels of views are just steps on the way, they aren't the true view. And that view is the viewless view, the one that doesn't cling to anything unverifiable by direct insight (and even there keeps an open mind).

:namaste:
Yup

and I think it is the understatement of the kalpa to say, it is no easy task.

:bow: :buddha1: :bow:

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
vinasp
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi acinteyyo,

Thank you for your most interesting post. I will reply to it in a series of seperate posts, taking one section at a time. My reply to the first section down to where you say ....

"So here knowledge with regard to the four noble truths is called right view" .... is given in my next post.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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Re: What is right view?

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

I have just seen something ! Have we all been making the same mistake ?

"And what, monks, is right view ? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the origin of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called right view". ( DN. 22. 21 Walshe 1987 )

What I saw is that it does not mention "four noble truths". I checked a similar passage in MN 141. 24 and the wording is the same.

And yet we read everywhere that right view is the knowledge of the four noble truths ! Nyanatiloka says it, bhikkhu Bodhi says it, Collins says it, hundreds of writers on buddhism have said it, and we have said it here.

Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.

I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.

If anyone knows of such a passage would they be so kind as to provide a reference.

Best wishes, Vincent.
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m0rl0ck
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Re: What is right view?

Post by m0rl0ck »

Can i throw in an answer from a non theravadan perspective?

"all views are wrong views" - TNH

Said various times and ways by various teachers.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Post by acinteyyo »

Hi Vincent,

I'm glad that you seem to have finally understood what I meant with
acinteyyo wrote:"So here knowledge with regard to the four noble truths is called right view"
When I say "knowledge with regard to the four noble truths" then what I mean with knowledge is the understanding of suffering, its origin, cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering. Which is in short understanding of the four noble truths. What I don't mean is "to simply know the four noble truths", in the way that one knows what the phrasing contains or things like that, like "the first noble truth is the nature of suffering, birth is suffering... the second noble truth... and so on". Certainly not!
vinasp wrote:It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.
You're right. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths. It is knowledge with regard to the four noble truths. Which means (as I already said) knowledge with regard to suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering. It is NOT knowledge of dependent origination. When this simply means to know dependent origination. It is the understanding of dependent origination as well as the understanding of the four noble truths.
One have to have a direct insight in these "truths" to really understand it. "Knowledge" is just like seeing the door. "Insight and understanding" is like to already walked through the door.
One who understands dependent origination understands the four noble truths, or like you would probably say, understands suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
Do you now know what I was trying to say? Don't "listen" to what is written. Listen to what is meant.

best wishes, acinteyyo
vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,
I have just seen something ! Have we all been making the same mistake ?
"And what, monks, is right view ? It is, monks, the knowledge of suffering, the knowledge of the origin of suffering, the knowledge of the cessation of suffering, and the knowledge of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering. This is called right view". ( DN. 22. 21 Walshe 1987 )
What I saw is that it does not mention "four noble truths". I checked a similar passage in MN 141. 24 and the wording is the same.
And yet we read everywhere that right view is the knowledge of the four noble truths ! Nyanatiloka says it, bhikkhu Bodhi says it, Collins says it, hundreds of writers on buddhism have said it, and we have said it here.
Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination. It is NOT the knowledge of the four noble truths, that is the result of developing right view, not right view itself.
I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.
If anyone knows of such a passage would they be so kind as to provide a reference.
Best wishes, Vincent.
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
nowheat
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Re: What is right view?

Post by nowheat »

acinteyyo wrote:"Knowledge" is just like seeing the door. "Insight and understanding" is like to already walked through the door.
One who understands dependent origination understands the four noble truths, or like you would probably say, understands suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
Do you now know what I was trying to say? Don't "listen" to what is written. Listen to what is meant.
Maybe the word you're looking for is "experience". Right view is having the experience of the four noble truths, and the experience of dependent origination? Experience in the sense of "living"?

:namaste:
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tiltbillings
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Re: What is right view?

Post by tiltbillings »

m0rl0ck wrote:
"all views are wrong views" - TNH
Which is, of course, a view, but it is not without truth even from a Theravadin point of view. Views are tools for awakening. Can't do without them.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Post by acinteyyo »

nowheat wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:"Knowledge" is just like seeing the door. "Insight and understanding" is like to already walked through the door.
One who understands dependent origination understands the four noble truths, or like you would probably say, understands suffering, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering.
Do you now know what I was trying to say? Don't "listen" to what is written. Listen to what is meant.
Maybe the word you're looking for is "experience". Right view is having the experience of the four noble truths, and the experience of dependent origination? Experience in the sense of "living"?

:namaste:
rather another word. in that simile "seeing the door" and "walked through the door" experience is envolved in both parts. what I meant is more what comes after the experience. you see the door, so you know that there is the door. but you don't know anything with regard to the door. you don't have understanding yet. you don't know how to open it, you don't know what's behind, you don't know how it is walking through the door and so on. when you examinend and experienced all these things you'll gain some kind of insight. you know then what is the doors purpose, how to open it, how it is to walk through and so on. you understand the "nature of doors".
maybe this makes it a bit more clear.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Clueless Git
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Re: What is right view?

Post by Clueless Git »

tiltbillings wrote:
m0rl0ck wrote:
"all views are wrong views" - TNH
Which is, of course, a view ...
I wanted to say that!
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acinteyyo
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Re: What is right view?

Post by acinteyyo »

vinasp wrote:I wonder if it actually says anywhere in the five nikaya's that : "right view is the knowledge (or understanding) of the four noble truths" - perhaps not.
Hi Vincent,

I read your post a second time. I'm wondering how you understood the meaning of the phrasing "four noble truths", when not as understanding of suffering, its origin, cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering? I can't imagine any other understanding. There is DN16 where it is said:
"Bhikkhus, it is through not realizing, through not penetrating the Four Noble Truths that this long course of birth and death has been passed through and undergone by me as well as by you. What are these four? They are the noble truth of dukkha; the noble truth of the origin of dukkha; the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha; and the noble truth of the way to the cessation of dukkha. But now, bhikkhus, that these have been realized and penetrated, cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming."
Here are the four noble truths clearly defined as suffering, its origin, cessation and the path leading to the cessation of suffering. And therefore means the quote from DN22:
"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view.
that right view is knowledge with regard to the four noble truths. Okay I see that in the above mentioned quote it is not written "And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to the noble truth of stress... and so on, but DN16 makes clear that dukkha, its origin, its cessation and the path leading to its cessation actually are the noble truths.
For me it is obvious.
To realize and penetrate the four noble truths one has to understand dependent origination so I'm of the same opinion like you when you said:
vinasp wrote:Right view includes "knowledge of the origin of suffering" and "knowledge of the cessation of suffering", this means the knowledge of dependent origination.
The four noble truths are a very subtle teaching, straight to the point but not as detailed as some other teachings. But as we can see from DN16, who has been realized and penetrated the four noble truths can say: "cut off is the craving for existence, destroyed is that which leads to renewed becoming, and there is no fresh becoming".
What does it mean? No more birth which is the beginning of all the mass of dukkha. The deathless - nibbana.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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