What is right view?

[Cittasanto]

Hi Manapa,

Yes. I should have said something about the passage I quoted. The term loka ( world, cosmos) is used in several senses. In this passage it seems to mean some internally constructed world. I agree with Acinteyyo that the most probable meaning is the five aggregates of clinging. These are the entire cosmos - all three realms of existence and all thirty-one classes of beings.

Best wishes, Vincent.

I know

[acinteyyo]

Hi acinteyyo,

You say that the six senses still exist. Most passages talk about the six sense-spheres which are not the same thing as the six senses. The six sense-spheres cease as is stated clearly many times. Do you need quotations for this ?

Best wishes, Vincent.

Hi Vincent,

please provide a suttareference.

best wishes, acinteyyo

[mikenz66]

Hi Vincent,

Where does it say that the sense bases (I presume is that you mean ayatana when you say "spheres") vanish for an arahant (before parinibbana)?

Mike

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Here are some quotations on the six sense bases, selected to show that they cease at enlightenment - in this life.

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards the eye of the past ; he does not seek delight in the eye of the
future ; and he is practising for revulsion towards the eye of the present, for its fading away and cessation".
"The ear is impermanent ... The nose ... The tongue ... The body ... The mind is impermanent ...for its fading away and cessation". Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, 35.7 page 1136.

[ Although 35.7 speaks of "the eye" it is not the actual eye which is meant, but the eye-sphere or base - the actual eye remains after enlightenment ]

"Venerable sir, it is said, 'Mara, Mara'. In what way, venerable sir, might there be Mara or the description of Mara ?"
"Where there is the eye, Samiddhi, where there are forms, eye-consciousness, things to be cognized by eye consciousness, there Mara exists or the description of Mara. ( repeat for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind).
"Where there is no eye, Samiddhi, no forms, no eye-consciousness, no things to be cognized by eye-consciousness, there Mara does not exist nor any description of Mara". ( repeat for ear, nose, tongue, body and mind ).

Connected Discourses, 35.65 page 1152.

The next sutta 35.66 is identical except Mara is replaced by "a being".
The following sutta 35.67 replaces Mara with "suffering".
The following sutta 35.68 replaces Mara with "the world".

MN 9.49 "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the sixfold base, the origin of the sixfold base, the cessation of the sixfold base, and the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base, in that way he is one of right view ... and has arrived
at this true Dhamma".

Best wishes, Vincent.

[mikenz66]

Hi Vincent,

Yes, I'm familiar with those quotes, but I do not interpret them as the six-fold base ceasing for an Arahant (until the body expires).

... a noble disciple understands ... the way leading to the cessation of the sixfold base...

It doesn't say: "For a noble disciple the six-fold base has ceased".

Metta
Mike

[vinasp]

Hi mike,

I expect that they say it somewhere, its just the time it takes to find things. Try this one :

"Pray, brother when the six spheres of contact cease without residue, is there anything still left ?" "Ah ! say not so brother".
[ This is repeated for "not anything ...", "both is and is not ..." and "niether is nor is not anything still left."]

"Brother, he who says : 'When the six spheres of contact cease without residue there is still something left', is conceptualising what should not be proliferated conceptually ... (repeat for the other three cases). Brother, whatever is the range of the six spheres of contact, that itself is the range of prolific conceptualisation. And whatever is the range of prolific conceptualisation, that itself is the range of the six spheres of contact. By the utter detachment from, and the cessation of the six spheres of contact, there comes to be the cessation, the allayment, of prolific conceptualisation."

Dialog between Maha Kotthita and Sariputta at AN. II. 161. From : Bhikkhu Nanananda, Concept and Reality, BPS Kandy 1986, page 21.

Perhaps one needs to understand in addition that "prolific conceptualisation" (papanca) has ceased for an enlightened individual.

'Iam', brethren, is a conceptual proliferation. 'This am I' ... 'I shall be' ... 'I shall not be' ... these, brethren, are proliferations. Wherefore, brethren, ye must say : "With mind free from proliferations will we abide". Thus must ye train yourselves". K.S. IV. 133-4 Nanananda, page 16.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[tiltbillings]

Hi mike,

I expect that they say it somewhere, its just the time it takes to find things.

So, the arahant does not see or hear or taste or touch anything. Goodness.

[kannada]

What is right view?

Open eyes...

[vinasp]

Hi tiltbillings,

I am not sure what you mean. Of course arahants still have eyes and see things.

"There exists in the Blessed One the eye, the Blessed One sees a form with the eye, yet there is no desire and lust in the Blessed One; the Blessed One is well liberated in mind. There exists in the Blessed One the ear ..."

Connected Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 1231. SN 35.232

This only goes to show that the six sense spheres, which cease, are not the actual six senses.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

At Connected Discourses 56.13 , Bhikkhu Bodhi page 1847, There is a version of the four noble truths. This is the same as the normal version except for the first truth :

"And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering ? It should be said : The five aggregates subject to clinging; that is, the form aggregate subject to clinging ... The consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. This is called the noble truth of suffering." [ the rest is identical to the normal four noble truths. ]

The next sutta 56.14 is also a variant version of the four noble truths. Again it is the first truth which is changed :

"And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering ? It should be said : the six internal sense bases. What six ? The eye base ... the mind base. This is called the noble truth of suffering."

When this sutta gives the fourth truth as the noble eightfold path, what it leads to is the cessation of the six internal sense bases - in other words, suffering.

Therefore, the six sense bases have ceased for everyone who has completed the noble eightfold path.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[tiltbillings]

Therefore, the six sense bases have ceased for everyone who has completed the noble eightfold path.

So they do not see, hear, think, taste, touch. Goodness.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Tilt,

I suspect he means no longer conditioned by ignorance.

Metta,
Retro.

[tiltbillings]

Greetings Tilt,

I suspect he means no longer conditioned by ignorance.

Metta,
Retro. :

One hopes that is what he means, but it not quite what he has said as of yet.

[acinteyyo]

Hi everybody,

cakkhu = eye
cakkháyatanam = the organ of the eye, the sense of sight. [not the eye itself, a kind of internal thing]
cakkhundriyam = the organ of the eye, the faculty of sight. [not the eye itself, a kind of internal thing]

‘Cha ajjhattikāni āyatanānī’ tissa vacanīyaṃ. Katamāni cha? Cakkhāyatanaṃ…pe… manāyatanaṃ – idaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhaṃ ariyasaccaṃ.
"And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering ? It should be said : the six internal sense bases. What six ? The eye base ... the mind base. This is called the noble truth of suffering."

"ajjhattikāni āyatanānī" is here translated into "six internal sense bases", which seems to make things difficult to understand.
ajjhattiko means: Relating or belonging to the individual or self, personal, internal, subjective.
Thus it should be understood as: What is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the six sense bases related to a self.
The ability/faculty of sight (cakkhundriyam) is not affected. But the sense of sight changes. From "this form is mine, I am this form, this form is my self" to "this form is not mine, I am not this form, this form is not my self" and for the arahant it isn't even that, it's just "form".
For example, the puthujjana sees: "this is my body, I am this body, it is my self"
the sekha sees: "this is not my body, I am not this body, it is not my self"
the asekha sees: "this form is form, depending on this form there is the term "body"
This is only an example to illustrate what I mean! Pleas don't take it too literally.

I don't see anywhere that the six sense bases cease before the death of the body. Maybe because I usually do not draw a distinction between the six senses and the six sense bases. But we could say the internal six sense bases have ceased after enlightenment, leaving the abilitiy to see untouched. This would then only mean that the six sense bases are no longer related to a self (refering to ajjhattiko). Things would be seen as they are: not-self.

But imho this shouldn't be discussed too much (in detail), because it easily leads to confusion . In the end it is again the well-known statement of the Buddha:
sabbe dhamma anatta

best wishes, acinteyyo

[BeduBodhi]

I'm afraid I began to lose the thread of this discussion after the first couple of pages, when it seemed to fall to bickering about terms, like a big cloud of dust out of which came flying Pali words and sutta citations.

Forgive me if I am being off topic, but I thought I'd share something I listened to only a couple of days ago, one of Sangharakshita's more well-known lectures on the 8FP, an eight-part series that when I heard it the first time about a year ago was the most engaging and enlightening presentation on the subject I have come across.

Among the things he has to say on Right View:

In the literature of Buddhism there
are many expositions of Right Understanding, as Perfect Vision
is generally called. One might even say there are too many, for
some expositions are not very helpful, and may even be mislead -
ing. Under the heading of Right Understanding some writers on
Buddhism would apparently like to include the whole of Bud -
dhist doctrine. Whatever could not be included under any other
heading is squeezed in here. ‘After all’, they seem to think, ‘it is
all a matter of Right Understanding: it is all something to be un -
derstood .’ So in it all goes – the whole doctrine, the whole teach -
ing, the whole philosophy. This tends to create the wrong
impression. I have found that students of Buddhism often think
that Right Understanding, as the first step of the Noble Eightfold
Path, means making a thorough study of the whole of Buddhist
thought, and taking a sort of Ph.D. in Buddhist philosophy.
They think that before you can start walking on the Noble Eight -
fold Path you have to learn all about the Mãdhyamikas and the
Yogãcãrins, the Sarvãstivãdins and the Sautrãntikas, as well as
about the T’ien T’ai School and the Avataæsaka School, and so
on. Only then, they think, can you put your foot on the Path and
start practising Buddhism.

But really it is not like that at all. Samyag-dòëìi , it must be em -
phasized, is just Perfect Vision. It has nothing to do with the
study of the schools of Buddhist philosophy. It is a vision , and as
such something direct and immediate, and more of the nature of
a spiritual experience than an intellectual understanding. Of
course the experience, the insight, can be expressed intellectually,
in terms of doctrinal concepts, philosophical systems, and so on,
but it is not identical with these. The vision itself stands apart,
stands above.

So what is this Perfect Vision? One may say it is a vision of the
nature of existence, but what does this vision reveal? What is the
nature of existence? This question is difficult to answer because
it is easy – only too easy – to answer. I am not being paradoxical.
What I mean is that only too many concepts lie ready to hand.
There is so much Buddhist philosophy available. We can so eas -
ily use a few technical terms, refer to this system or that, and say
this is the nature of existence according to Buddhism. But this is
too slick, too easy. We must beware of the temptation to produce
our concepts too readily. What we are trying to communicate is
not simply a set of ideas, not a system of philosophy in the aca -
demic sense, but what the Buddha himself, in his own language,
quite unambiguously called dòëìi –a vision .

If you'd like to read more, a book was published from the lectures and can be downloaded as a PDF here:
http://www.sangharakshita.org/bookshelf ... mation.pdf

Or download the lecture series as MP3s here:
http://www.freebuddhistaudio.com/series/details?ser=X07

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of the eye is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death. The arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of the ear ... of the nose ... of the tongue ... of the body ... of the mind, is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death".
"The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of the eye ... the mind is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death."

Connected Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 1008. SN. 26.1

"The cessation ... of the eye ... is the cessation of suffering ..."What does this mean ?
Clearly, "the eye" should not be understood in a literal sense, so we are being asked to find another meaning. This is a special "dhamma language".

The following sutta says the same thing about : visible forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tactile objects and mental phenomena (mind objects). These too, should not be understood in a literal sense. SN. 26.2

Further suttas say the same about the six types of consciousness, the six types of contact, the six types of feeling, the six types of perception, the six types of volition, the six types of craving, the four elements and the five aggregates.

SN. 26.3, 26.4, 26.5, 26.6, 26.7, 26.8, 26.9, 26.10

Best wishes, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

Here is another way to understand "the world" from SN. 35.84

At Savitthi. "Then the venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One ... and said to him : "Venerable sir, it is said 'the world, the world'. In what way, venerable sir, is it said 'the world'?"
"Whatever is subject to disintegration, Ananda, is called the world in the Noble Ones Discipline. And what is subject to disintegration ? The eye, Ananda, is subject to disintegration, (visible) forms ... eye-consciousness ... eye-contact ... whatever feeling arises with eye-contact as condition ... that too is subject to disintegration. The ear is subject to disintegration ... The mind is subject to disintegration ... Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition ... that too is subject to disintegration. Whatever is subject to disintegration, Ananda, is called the world in the Noble Ones Discipline."

So the six internal sense spheres and the six external sense spheres and the six types of consciousness and the six types of contact and everything which arises from that contact - is the world. It follows from this that if "the world" ceases, then all these things must also cease.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[vinasp]

Hi everyone,

What does it all mean ? Why all this talk about the ceasing of the eye ? This is my understanding. The expression "six-spheres" (salayatana) is used for one of the links of dependent origination. Here it is usually understood to mean the six internal sense spheres - the eye, the ear, the nose .... the mind. This is because everyones first understanding of dependent origination is as an explanation of rebirth. When you are reborn you acquire a new body and therefore a new set of six senses.
However, the real understanding of dependent origination is very different from this. It is an understanding in which each link can be seen in the present, depends on ignorance, and is capable of ceasing. The understanding of the link "six-spheres" as the actual six senses is a major barrier to achieving this alternative understanding of dependent origination.
This is why the teachings go to great lengths to set-up an alternative understanding of "the eye", "the visible object", "the ear", "sounds", and so on. And this alternative understanding is one in which "the eye" can, and does, cease. What is this alternative understanding of "the eye" ? Here we run into a major problem. The teachings never actually say what the alternative understanding is. Since it is really quite simple they could easily say it explicitly but they don't. Why not ? Because this is the key to the higher understanding of the teachings. What they do is to set up a problem which everyone who is trying to understand the teachings must grapple with and solve. Knowledge of the teachings is not enough, a monk must have insight into his own mind in order to find that which is called "the eye" and which ceases. Understanding this is equivalent to becoming a stream-winner.

Best wishes, Vincent.

[phil]

Hi all

Sorry, I haven't read the thread, but based on experience elsewhere I can hazard a guess on some of the contentious points. Some people I know go through life (and Buddhist practice) with a definition of right view that sounds very Ariyan to me. I heard Bhikkhu Bodhi talk of Right View being either conceptual or experiential. I think the only kind of experiential right view that I can have is the basic teaching that actions bring results, that we can't get away with bad deeds. That can be experienced again and again, so it is my definition of right view, for now. Gradually there will (or won't) be development of understanding that makes the deeper, subtler definitions of right view truly important for me. Just my two cents.

Metta,

Phil

p.s of course it is good to know what the texts say about Ariyan right view, but in my opinion there is a tendency to be too eager to make it our own...

[dhamma follower]

Dear all,
trying to come back to the discussion in the first page about the relationship among right view - 4 NT - D.O. this passage bellow may be relevant:

Anuloma-ñāna (knowledge of adaptation) knows according to the four Noble Truths. That means: It sums up the whole course of vipassanā and gathers the accumulated force of the contemplation done by the previous eight ñāna which are otherwise called pubbabhāga-magga (precursory path). The objects of vipassanā are the rūpa-nāma-kkhandha, which are nothing but dukkha-sacca and samudaya-sacca. Since anuloma-ñāna is the adaptation to the previous eight ñāna it is the absolutely correct contemplation according to dukkha-sacca and samudaya-sacca.

When the pubbabhāga-magga is developed, it means the 37 bodhipakkhiya-dammā (the Requisites of Enlightenment) are also developed, because they are the means and the application of the correct method in rūpa-nāma.

When the pubbabhāga-magga is concluded, then the bodhipakkhiya-dhammā, which are noting but magga-sacca, come together simultaneously and balanced. When magga-sacca is completed, nirodha-sacca (Cessation) will be realized; since anuloma-ñāna is the adaptation to the 37 bodhipakkhiya-dhammā it is the absolutely correct contemplation according to magga-sacca and nirodha-sacca.

If we were to express the characteristics of anuloma-ñāna in words, it contemplate like this:

1. It perceives the rise and fall of all dhamma and sees that it is natural for them to be like this.

2. It perceives that the cessation of all dhamma is a natural thing.

3. The manifestation of rūpa-nāma is inducing fear, it is horrible.

4. It perceives that rūpa-nāma in themselves are suffering and affliction.

5. It is disenchanted and weary of sankhāra beyond all hope.

6. It is wishing to escape from the rūpa-nāma-kkhandha.

7. It retraces the way of practice once again in order to emerge from the rūpa-nāma-kkhandha.

8. When being aware of rūpa-nāma as they really are, it lets go and doesn't cling or stick to anything whatever.

Comprising this aspects of contemplating rūpa-nāma, anuloma-ñāna (knowledge of adaptation) is the final conclusion of vipassanā practice and the irrevocable refutation of all sankhāra. This is the condition for the 37 bodipakkhiya-dhammā to arise fully developed and unified; the mind is prepared and adjusted to enter Supramundane Absorption.

Q: What are the characteristics of the 13th ñāna?

A: The 13th ñāna is gotrabhū-ñāna (maturity knowledge). It is the knowledge that changes the lineage; this ñāna also belongs to the magga-javana-citta-vīthi and it arises immediately in succession to anuloma-ñāna.

Anuloma-ñāna is the link between the course of practice followed and refined since udayabbaya-ñāna and the 37 bodhipakkhiya-dhammā which are the final results of the contemplation. Thus it links this life to the seeds of Enlightenment and then its duty is fulfilled. But gotrabhū has the function of bringing this seed to Nibbāna which is the utter Cessation of all sankhāra. Thus it links the beginningless past of samsāra to the stream of cessation which is Nibbāna.

Gotrabhū-ñāna changes from lokiya-citta (worldly mind) to lokuttara-citta (Supramundane mind). As regards the individual, it is the change from puthujjana (worldling) to ariya-puggala (Noble one). According to the natural principles, samādhi which in anuloma-ñāna has been upacāra-samādhi, will increase its strength in this ñāna to be appanā-samādhi (fixed concentration). While anuloma-ñāna knows that rūpa-nāma must come to an end, yet it does not know what will happen after this end because it has the object of rūpa-nāma. When gotrabhū arises the object is Nibbāna, and gotrabhū realizes that, the destruction of rūpa-nāma does not mean annihilation of something existing or a blank nothingness. It realizes that the characteristic of Nibbāna is Peace.


Gotrabhū-ñāna can be compared with moving a foot across the threshold of a door. The other foot still remains outside the door but one foot is already past it. The Door of Nibbāna is just like that. Outside the Door of Nibbāna there are still rūpa and nāma as objects; when entering inside Nibbāna there is no rūpa-nāma but there is Nibbāna as object; Nibbāna is khandha-vimutti, deliverance from the 5 rūpa-nāma-kkhandha. So the 13th ñāna, gotrabhū-ñāna, is like the Door of Nibbāna because when the magga-vīthi (Path-process) has arisen there is nothing in the way anymore.

Q: What are the characteristics of the 14th ñāna?

A: The teaching about magga-javana-vīthi-citta (the Mind in the Thought-process of the Path) is pariyatti (comprehensible teaching); it is not the practice, because the practice is paccattam, the meditator as a matter of fact understands by himself and sees for himself. When gotrabhū-ñāna has arisen, the maggañāna will follow in succession without interruption. Samādhi at that stage is appanā-samādhi (fixed concentration); it is appanā-vīthi (mental process of absorption). The mind is quenched and Nibbāna is the object.


The magga-citta is the Experience of the immutable, unconditioned Reality, which is unborn, it does not arise and cannot vanish, therefore it is Indestructible (amata). The maggañāna cuts off and cools down kilesa, the machinery of sorrow, which are listed as the 10 samyojana (fetters), according to the four levels of magga. This is the moment of deliverance; it is the identity of cause and effect. The magga-citta will not return again.

Q: What are the characteristics of the 15th ñāna?

A: The 15th ñāna is phala-ñāna (Fruition-knowledge). It arises in consequence of the magga-citta without interruption for two or three moments, depending on conditions and the rebirth-consciousness. Phala-citta (Fruit-consciousness) has Nibbāna as object and it is appanā-samādhi.

While magga is the highest kamma (action) in that it renders kamma inoperative according to its level, phala is the vipāka (result) of that kamma and is aware of Cessation after the destruction of kilesa; the phala-citta may return when the practice is continued. Magga and phala are both lokuttara-citta (Supramundane mind).

Q: What are the characteristics of the 16th ñāna?

A: The 16th ñāna is paccavekkhana-ñāna (knowledge of reviewing). This knowledge is lokiya-citta (worldly mind). It is the ñāna which considers the magga-phala that has just happened, and how much kilesa has been left. This ñāna has rūpa-nāma as object.

In practice, this process of the Path does not last as long as the snap of a finger or a flash of lightning. For the meditator it is a single act of noticing. He will remember the vutthāna-gāminī vipassanā and that afterwards all feelings broke off for a moment. The destruction of kilesa, however, is permanent and qualifies for the Final Nibbāna, if it was the true Cessation in the magga. Therefor one should examine carefully, when cessation of some sort has been experienced.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/practi ... ection.htm

From the above, we can see that:

1. supermundane right view arises in regard with the 4 NT
2. it's also the direct understanding of D.O. in reverse order, where wisdom (vija) cut off the chain, and no nama-rupa arise in a split second
3.Though it happens in just a finger snap, the effect is permanent ( in case of a sotapanna, the cause is supermundane right view (direct insight) , the effect is removal of belief in a self, though moha still remains. in case of an aranhant, both cause and effect are direct insight - seeing things as they truly are permanently )
4. The Noble eight fold Path is completed all in one, supermundane right view do include all the other Path factors.
5. Of course, the moment of occurance of right view is also direct experience of anatta.

All the best,
D.F.