"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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appicchato
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by appicchato »

Dhamma Wheel turning tabloid?...why not stick to the good stuff...
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Ben
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by Ben »

appicchato wrote:Dhamma Wheel turning tabloid?...why not stick to the good stuff...
Indeed.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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forestmat
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by forestmat »

Apologies Ven Appicchato and Ben,

have I posted something that I shouldn't have in the Lounge forum? - "Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends"
Hartridge Buddhist Monastery, Devon, England
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Ben
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by Ben »

Its ok, forestmat.
My concern is that threads like this can degenerate into shaudenfreude and we've had a few threads of late that have focused on the alleged indiscretions of some monks.
I am sympathetic to the fact that we have ordained members here and the last thing I want is for them to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome here.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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BlackBird
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by BlackBird »

Rob1980 wrote:
BlackBird wrote: Eventually it would be nice if the parajika men were to be investigated and forcibly disrobed (given their reluctance to remove themselves from the robes that they have no right to wear)
I would not be too quick to judge everyone who had a parajika offense levelled against them in the book as 'parajika men'. It may well be that they are parajika, in which case they are no longer Bhikkhus anyway. But it maybe that some of the incidents reported may come from a misunderstanding or might not be entirely accurate. In a monastic community which doesn't have access to worldly news, there is a tendency for rumours and stories to take on a rather too fanastic turn. I am not denying what the author in the book wrote but I would say there is one inaccuracy that I am aware of, and there may be more. For example, the monk that Ven. Ariyananda beat with a stick was not a senior monk, but was actually a samanera. Though it could be argued that he was a senior monk, as he had taken pabbaja before Ven. Ariyananda. But he was not a bhikkhu, yet by saying he was a senior monk gives the story more weight. Though that is not to excuse beating another human being with a stick.

I should also add that although Ven. Sanghasobhana did have a bit of a temper, he has a very good heart; I found the comments about him in the book quite childish and naive. He worked tirelessly for other monks and for the sangha when I was there. It was sad to see the book portraying him in such a negative light.
Right, this is why I did not give a specific name of those who may or may not be parajika. What I am saying is if there are parajika men (and it would seem given the account of Nirosh that that is the case), then in an ideal world, these former monks would be stripped of their robes, and forced to stop being imposters. If a former monk is parajika and is pretending to be a monk he is bringing harm upon the Sasana and an incredible amount of harm upon himself.

I'm sure that some of the monks mentioned in the book are nice people, but I am also aware (given my own long history with akusala acts) that good people can do bad things.

I hope that clarifys things somewhat Rob :)

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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forestmat
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by forestmat »

Certainly no schadenfreude (which is what I think you meant to write) on my behalf Ben - but I do live in Thailand and these are currently big stories here.

The development and practice of Mudita is a far more appropriate virtue.
Hartridge Buddhist Monastery, Devon, England
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Ben
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Re: The Nude Monk's Burning Robes

Post by Ben »

Dear all,

This thread is closed until further notice while the mod/admin team review the content.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Ben
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by Ben »

forestmat wrote:Certainly no schadenfreude (which is what I think you meant to write)
Yes it was, thanks for the correction.
forestmat wrote:on my behalf Ben
Understood, I was not thinking of you. But in my experience, these sorts of threads tend to degenerate into negativity as they attract more contributors.
forestmat wrote:- but I do live in Thailand and these are currently big stories here.
I understand completely.
forestmat wrote:The development and practice of Mudita is a far more appropriate virtue.
I am glad to hear it, forestmat!
Personally, I am very appreciative of the presence of ordained members of the sangha here at Dhamma Wheel. They are indeed, a jewel.
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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BlackBird
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by BlackBird »

Maybe we could have a corruption mega thread, as a place to keep all these stories and discussions in one place, rather than having multiple threads per week discussing the same topic?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Dan74
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Scandals in the Sangha and the relevance to our practice

Post by Dan74 »

Last few years there have been some scandals in American Zen circles that I have followed to varying extent and now there are many threads about scandals and corruption in Theravada on this forum. So I wanted to explore the ramifications of these events to us, to our practice.

First I would like to invite you to pay attention to what resonates in you to these events. What are the reactions? I think it is worthwhile to stop and listen carefully before reacting and proceeding with further proliferations.

For me I had been puzzled how many years of practice do not guarantee basic morality, I wondered how and where one goes off the track and if indeed their practice was efficacious. I also wondered if the culture at the various temples and monasteries is conducive to cultivation.

These are good questions I thought and I do not advocate sweeping them under the carpet. But what I also noticed is when such doubts start to dominate then rather than being inspired and determined, I waiver in my practice and my own sila begins to decline. After all contemplating the qualities of the Buddha, being inspired by great teachers and indeed having contact with them, are fantastic motivators, whereas corrosive doubt is not.

I am wondering if people notice their attraction to these scandals, the inordinate amount of time (and forum space) given to them and the effect this is having on their practice. And then scandals are followed by anonymous accounts, anonymous accusations - 'Oh what a tangled web we weave!'

I am guessing many members have kept clear of all this stuff precisely because they see it as not conducive to good practice. Perhaps those of us without such clarity can reflect...
_/|\_
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BlackBird
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Re: Scandals in the Sangha and the relevance to our practice

Post by BlackBird »

I was just discussing this with another member.

I think we need to be really careful that these discussions do not devolve into a slandering of the Sangha in general, and our ordained members here at Dhammawheel. As others have said, the last thing we want to do is discourage the presence of our ordained members. I for one value their contributions so very much! The real issue here doesn't seem to be the topic at hand, but people's ability to maintain right speech in the face of a subject matter that encourages strongly held views.

Right speech here at Dhammawheel is something that I think is a concern, I have had multiple 'run ins' with certain members that has been in no uncertain terms: abusive, and I think it's a shame, because while it's human nature to an extent, I feel that Dhammawheel has always been a place where one can disagree with another member, and not have it become personal, or ad hominem. Ironically, some of the latest negative encounters have been with people who disapprove of my involvement in these threads.

Back to the topic at hand, I myself have been involved in a number of these discussions of late, and my reason for doing so has always been entirely that I feel honest and frank evaluations of the Sasana in terms of what we're dealing with are for the long term benefit of the Sasana. We need to investigate these problems, not sweep them under the rug. The important thing is our intentions in doing so, I know that my own intentions are not for slander, but for the purpose of allowing people who wish to ordain to make the right decisions about the places they go. Since my trip to Sri Lanka, I have received more PM's than I can count on two hands from different people looking to visit and potentially ordain in Sri Lanka, thus at least with the Na Uyana thread, my reason for involvement in these discussions is as much for their sake as it is for the sake of the Sasana. Finally, for those of us who have been 'around the block' so to speak as far as institutional Buddhism goes, we know these things exist - We don't need to always discuss them. But I remember when I first came into Buddhism I thought all monks were perfect, and that all Buddhists in general we're nice and friendly. These mistaken notions caused me no small degree of hurt when I had these ideas shattered by a number of encounters. I kind of wish I'd known in advance, it would have made these encounters a lot easier...

Even given my knowledge of corruption, and the warning I received from many people in advance of my trip, seeing it for my own eyes, especially from teachers who were held in very high esteem was a tough experience, and was no small part of my disillusionment and decision not to ordain while in Sri Lanka - If I can help ensure that those who also wish to ordain are more careful than I was with the places they visit, or at least are prepared to witness what I was not prepared for - Then they might succeed where I did not, by making it into the ochre robes.

I understand that some members are concerned that Dhammawheel is becoming a 'tabloid' in a sense what with all these threads about corruption recently, but I feel a middle way here is ideal - That is why I have suggested that perhaps a mega-thread, with strict rules and conditions to ensure right speech and that such discussions do not devolve into slander might be something worth pursuing.

I might add, that in spite of all my involvement in these threads, my meditation has never been better. So again, I think what's important is one's own intentions and self moderation of any possible passions.

With metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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SDC
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Re: Scandals in the Sangha and the relevance to our practice

Post by SDC »

Dan74 wrote:I am wondering if people notice their attraction to these scandals, the inordinate amount of time (and forum space) given to them and the effect this is having on their practice. And then scandals are followed by anonymous accounts, anonymous accusations - 'Oh what a tangled web we weave!'

I am guessing many members have kept clear of all this stuff precisely because they see it as not conducive to good practice. Perhaps those of us without such clarity can reflect...
BlackBird wrote:But I remember when I first came into Buddhism I thought all monks were perfect, and that all Buddhists in general we're nice and friendly. These mistaken notions caused me no small degree of hurt when I had these ideas shattered by a number of encounters. I kind of wish I'd known in advance, it would have made these encounters a lot easier...
It did hurt, but I am so thankful to have received such a humbling glimpse into this darker, seemingly inevitable, side of the monastic community when I did. Since then I have had a more realistic view of the situation and such scandals do not affect me in the least.

The way I see it, these scandals aren't anything new. What's new is that they are being exposed. Take the high demand for scandals from society, the ever increasing ability to communicate these scandals quickly to a global audience, the fact that it is becoming decreasingly taboo to go against religious organizations, and all the sudden we see corruption show up everywhere.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
dagon
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Re: Scandals in the Sangha and the relevance to our practice

Post by dagon »

Dan74 wrote:Last few years there have been some scandals in American Zen circles that I have followed to varying extent and now there are many threads about scandals and corruption in Theravada on this forum. So I wanted to explore the ramifications of these events to us, to our practice.

First I would like to invite you to pay attention to what resonates in you to these events. What are the reactions? I think it is worthwhile to stop and listen carefully before reacting and proceeding with further proliferations.

For me I had been puzzled how many years of practice do not guarantee basic morality, I wondered how and where one goes off the track and if indeed their practice was efficacious. I also wondered if the culture at the various temples and monasteries is conducive to cultivation.

These are good questions I thought and I do not advocate sweeping them under the carpet. But what I also noticed is when such doubts start to dominate then rather than being inspired and determined, I waiver in my practice and my own sila begins to decline. After all contemplating the qualities of the Buddha, being inspired by great teachers and indeed having contact with them, are fantastic motivators, whereas corrosive doubt is not.

:goodpost:

I am wondering if people notice their attraction to these scandals, the inordinate amount of time (and forum space) given to them and the effect this is having on their practice. And then scandals are followed by anonymous accounts, anonymous accusations - 'Oh what a tangled web we weave!'

I am guessing many members have kept clear of all this stuff precisely because they see it as not conducive to good practice. Perhaps those of us without such clarity can reflect...

Thanks, i think many are thinking the same
paul
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Or, you could just close them because they mostly violate the principle of right speech.

It's OK to blame the blameworthy if one has a good intention to warn people of the dangers of associating with some wicked individual, or to blame directly in order to admonish someone for behaviour that is doing them harm.

However, these threads don't seem to have any good intention — and are really just gossip.
Disregard the faults of others, things done and left undone by others,
but examine the deeds done and not done by oneself. Dhp.v.50

Easily seen are others’ faults, hard indeed to see are one’s own.
Like chaff one winnows others’ faults,
but one’s own (faults) one hides,
as a crafty fowler conceals himself by camouflage. Dhp.v.252
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Surin monk accused of B56m fraud

Post by lyndon taylor »

The Catholic church said pretty much the same thing about pedophile priests, "we don't need to hear all that"
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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