The book is unskilfull and has seriously damaged people's confidence in the Theravada.Viscid wrote:Regardless of its poor reasoning and balance, it was due. Even if to incite this discussion, to make people question their imagined stainless image of the Theravada, it was due. It is a book which seems to have incited some controvercy, and is worth respecting in that regard. If the accusations and concerns expressed were either baseless or already well-documented, this book wouldn't have made a blip. But it seems to have!tiltbillings wrote:Very smelly bovine coproforms. It is a badly done book, badly reasoned, and poorly balanced.Viscid wrote:Love this book.
It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Does that translate into losing faith in the Dhamma?tiltbillings wrote:The book is unskilfull and has seriously damaged people's confidence in the Theravada.
Despite its problems, Theravada is still an excellent vehicle for practicing the dhamma. The vehicle may have uncomfortable seats, but it can travel from point A to point B relatively well. If this makes people look into alternatives, then good. If their desire to know and apply the teachings is genuine, they'll soon figure out in their search that the alternatives also have their inherent issues.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
My point is that it says nothing surprising, not that I disagree that there are clearly, and unsurprisingly, many problems (most of which seem to have been around since the time of the Buddha, judging from the Vinaya and subsequent history).Viscid wrote:Regardless of its poor reasoning and balance, it was due. Even if to incite this discussion, to make people question their imagined stainless image of the Theravada, it was due.tiltbillings wrote:Very smelly bovine coproforms. It is a badly done book, badly reasoned, and poorly balanced.Viscid wrote:Love this book.
It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
You seem to be saying that it's intended for naive people with no contact with the real world.
Where do you see it making a blip?Viscid wrote: It is a book which seems to have incited some controvercy, and is worth respecting in that regard. If the accusations and concerns expressed were either baseless or already well-documented, this book wouldn't have made a blip. But it seems to have!
It's certainly a serious problem that some approach Buddhism with the idea that everyone and everything about Buddhist organisations is perfect. I've seen this lead to dramatic losses of faith (in people I know off-line and in some here). As Tilt alludes to.
The converse problem I see is obsessing about problems (real or imagined) to the extent of avoiding real-life Sangha because they are "not perfect", and the idea that westerners are practising so much better than anyone in these corrupt Asian institutions.
Mike
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
That likely wasn't Dhammika's intent at all, but his book may be valuable as an account of the problems in Theravada for those who live in countries without much direct access to the Sangha.mikenz66 wrote: You seem to be saying that it's intended for naive people with no contact with the real world.
I don't, really. I shouldn't have written that.mikenz66 wrote:Where do you see it making a blip?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
- ancientbuddhism
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Are you really that easily influenced by information at face value? When I read Dhammika’s rant I chuckled through parts of it because I have also seen such and more in the wats, temples and vihāras I have lived in. What is truly distasteful to me is not what the content is pointing to but that a bhikkhu has stooped to such scandal.manasikara wrote:After I read 'The Broken Buddha' my relationship with the Theravada as an institution / religious organization was changed. My formerly rose-coloured glasses were well and truly broken. I found myself unable to attend Theravadan religious gatherings for quite a while, but I did not ever consider giving up meditation practice or accepting guidance from the pali canon. So it actually strengthened my conviction in the Teachings by making me see that they (Buddha's Teachings) are far greater than any one sect that might claim to best embody them (and does not every sect claim this?).
I have met Ven. Dhammika a few times when he visited Melbourne. I don't think he wrote TBB out of bitterness, he is just what is termed a 'whistleblower' and every organization needs one, even Theravada Buddhism (the institution).
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Given its lack of balance, it certainly can.Viscid wrote:Does that translate into losing faith in the Dhamma?tiltbillings wrote:The book is unskilfull and has seriously damaged people's confidence in the Theravada.
The Theravada is not served well by this seriously flawed book.Despite its problems, Theravada is still an excellent vehicle for practicing the dhamma. The vehicle may have uncomfortable seats, but it can travel from point A to point B relatively well. If this makes people look into alternatives, then good. If their desire to know and apply the teachings is genuine, they'll soon figure out in their search that the alternatives also have their inherent issues.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- ancientbuddhism
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
It is sad to read such importance given to this tabloid. It has been already said in this thread that this happens elsewhere in religion too. So I will only add that religion can be like a glass house, throw enough stones and you may well break something you like.
“I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)
A Handful of Leaves
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Sigh. You're probably right.tiltbillings wrote:The Theravada is not served well by this seriously flawed book.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Exactly.Viscid wrote:Love this book.
It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
Westerners have not been exposed to a lot of the dirt in the Theravadin sangha, and because of this Dhammika does not have to present a "fair and balanced" evaluation of it. This book is allowing naive Westerners who do not have much first-hand experience dealing with the sangha to have that balanced view. If Dhammika forced himself to write about the positive qualities of the Theravadin Sangha just to seem balanced, it would have dulled the point of this earnest expression of genuine concern.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Apparently not:Jhana4 wrote:Exactly.Viscid wrote:Love this book.
It really shouldn't offend you. If it does, then it's just the pride you have for a flawed institution which is being hurt.
Westerners have not been exposed to a lot of the dirt in the Theravadin sangha, and because of this Dhammika does not have to present a "fair and balanced" evaluation of it. This book is allowing naive Westerners who do not have much first-hand experience dealing with the sangha to have that balanced view. If Dhammika forced himself to write about the positive qualities of the Theravadin Sangha just to seem balanced, it would have dulled the point of this earnest expression of genuine concern.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 94#p153809" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
It's a hard call. I think your run-of-the-mill person would conflate criticism of the Theravadin institution with criticism of the Dhamma. The Theravadin institution, however flawed, provides a good platform for a thorough investigation of The Buddha's teachings. If a cynical view of it were to spread, much like the cynical view of the Catholic church has spread, it would hasten a demise of the institution which grants such investigation.tiltbillings wrote:Apparently not:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 94#p153809" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If all monks spoke so openly and publicly of the abuses and corruption they've witnessed in the Sangha, perhaps the lay community will become jaded and no longer choose to support it...
On a related note, Yuttadhammo has just recently written a (rather impassioned) post regarding the sexual abuse of children in the Sangha.
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/2011 ... e-silence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I find it fairly hypocritical that this type of behaviour is not met with the same volume of outrage and disgust by westerners as it is when within the context of Catholicism. If these abuses are not accepted, and real change does not occur quickly, then the Theravadin orthodoxy as we now know it will surely fall to scandal.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
One of the points of Venerable Dhammika's book is that in Asia, it does not.Viscid wrote: The Theravadin institution, however flawed, provides a good platform for a thorough investigation of The Buddha's teachings.
That could be a good thing, it could possibly force an improvement.If all monks spoke so openly and publicly of the abuses and corruption they've witnessed in the Sangha, perhaps the lay community will become jaded and no longer choose to support it...
The Asian Sangha is just no part of many American's ( & other westerners ) world. They may not even be aware of it.On a related note, Yuttadhammo has just recently written a (rather impassioned) post regarding the sexual abuse of children in the Sangha.
http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/2011 ... e-silence/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I find it fairly hypocritical that this type of behaviour is not met with the same volume of outrage and disgust by westerners as it is when within the context of Catholicism.
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Sociology on Theravada Buddhism in the United States generally concludes that there is a phenomenon of "parallel congregations", with both Asian-immigrant and American-born groups sharing ritual space but not sharing practices: American-born practitioners tend to focus on meditation, while Asian-immigrants tend to focus on dana and festival-going, even though both groups may attend the same temple. Far from it being something they're not aware of, it's generally a salient difference and "just not my/our style", to paraphrase the most common sort of response.Jhana4 wrote:The Asian Sangha is just no part of many American's ( & other westerners ) world. They may not even be aware of it.
While Asian-immigrants tend to treat monastics with great bodily respect, most American-born Theravadans tend to treat monastics the way they treat college professors. The criticisms of "The Broken Buddha" do not necessarily apply in the same way, if at all, in these new contexts; in short, the work is becoming outdated.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
Which is demonstrably false, given that Asia is where a large number of current Lay and Monastic teachers in the West trained.Jhana4 wrote:One of the points of Venerable Dhammika's book is that in Asia, it does not.Viscid wrote: The Theravadin institution, however flawed, provides a good platform for a thorough investigation of The Buddha's teachings.
If the Theravada had not been limping along in some semi-functional form in Asia there would be no Theravada Buddhism in the West.
Mike
Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika
It's just another book and in my opinion heavily shaped by Ven Dhammika's own monastic experience. I'm sure that if the Ven had stumbled into Wat Pa Barn Tard (for example) as a young man he would be writing very different books.
What are our expectations of a living religion that is over 2500 years old and which has millions of adherents? Theravada Buddhism is what it is and as Mike points out it still seems to be producing benefit.
What are our expectations of a living religion that is over 2500 years old and which has millions of adherents? Theravada Buddhism is what it is and as Mike points out it still seems to be producing benefit.