Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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robertk
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by robertk »

clw_uk wrote:Is there a sutta in the pali canon excluding the abhidhamma that states that cause and effect can have a large time delay?
Thousands of suttas. Just one example:
"
Threefold, however, is the fruit of karma: ripening
during the life-time (dittha-dhamma-vedaníya-kamma),
ripening in the next birth (upapajja-vedaníya-kamma),
ripening in later births (aparápariya-vedaníya kamma)
...." (A.VI, 63).
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

Dhammanando wrote:But what is the relationship between the two kinds of right view? According to Buddhadāsa and his circle there's none whatsoever; they're two unrelated doctrines that the Buddha taught to different types of persons – one a doctrine conducive to morality and the other a doctrine of liberation. And so if it's liberation one is after, then according to this interpretation, mundane right view will be of no interest at all; indeed it will be counterproductive, for holding it ineluctably makes one an eternalist. Have I got it right?
Venerable Dhammanando

Given you have asked the question, I must reply of course you have not got it right. Your post to me is full of presumption.

If you can find a reference or source to support your claims against Buddhadasa and 'his circle' then you may possibly have a point.

It is best to discuss realities rather than imaginings.

With metta,

Element

P.S. The Lord Buddha has advised in the sutta mundane right view leads to merit, becoming & asava. In other words, it alone cannot lead to liberation. Similarly, being concerned with making merit for future lives rather than extinguishing self-view here & now will not lead to liberation. Regarding meritorious action being the foundation for the path, that is a given.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by retrofuturist »

Or alternatively translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu...

“The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right
here & now, that which arises later, and that which arises following that.”
— AN 6:63

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

Element wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:But what is the relationship between the two kinds of right view? According to Buddhadāsa and his circle there's none whatsoever; they're two unrelated doctrines that the Buddha taught to different types of persons – one a doctrine conducive to morality and the other a doctrine of liberation. And so if it's liberation one is after, then according to this interpretation, mundane right view will be of no interest at all; indeed it will be counterproductive, for holding it ineluctably makes one an eternalist. Have I got it right?
Venerable Dhammanando

Given you have asked the question, I must reply of course you have not got it right. Your post to me is full of presumption.

If you can find a reference or source to support your claims against Buddhadasa and 'his circle' then you may possibly have a point.

It is best to discuss realities rather than imaginings.

With metta,

Element

P.S. The Lord Buddha has advised in the sutta mundane right view leads to merit, becoming & asava. In other words, it alone cannot lead to liberation. Similarly, being concerned with making merit for future lives rather than extinguishing self-view here & now will not lead to liberation. Regarding meritorious action being the foundation for the path, that is a given.
Element,

The Bhante has every right, as does anyone who has read your & Stuka's posts over time to describe your views as he has. Whether here or at another online group, you two have only sneered at the mundane right view of literal rebirth (and those who value that view) and promoted exclusively your Buddhadasa-ism of D.O. (as momentary arising) as you see it, as the only proper path of practice.

I note you have avoided writing the correct "reality" above to offset the "imagined" view given. No one knows your mind better than you, so why not clearly & concisely write your view, so no one else will get it wrong.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
rowyourboat
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by rowyourboat »

The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO. But at the same time, there are suttas which say that the elements of the DO can be seen in the here and now (okkantasamyutta) by stream entrants. Now all stream entrants are not endowed with any special capabilities enabling them to see past lives. Therefore the conclusion is that some elements which correspond to past life elements can be seen happening now, in this life. For example sankhara (mental fabrications- intentions) giving rise to consciousness. In the past life model this is supposed to mean karmic intentions of a past life giving rise to the first spark of consciousness in the womb. However the closest approximation we can come to this is to see intentions in this life giving rise to consciousness at any of the sense bases. This can be done by vipassana aimed at seeing the process of perception.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Element

Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Element »

rowyourboat wrote:The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO.
My opinion is the Mahanidana sutta is one sutta distinct from scores of others on the subject. Plus it is in the Digha Nikaya, which appears to be precursor to the Mahayana Suttas and thus doubtful if spoken by the Buddha. If so, it was spoken to Ananda, who was unenlightened and not ready for stream entry.

Also, discerning reality is something to be considered. For example, when we look at our body with our eyes, both actually or in a mirror, we are not actually experiencing the body thus there is no existence of the body. When we look at our body, we are merely experiencing a sight via the eye and eye consciousness.

However, in meditation, when consciousness descends into the body itself, then the mind directly experiences the body via the body sense organ and body consciousness. For example, in the first satipatthana, Buddha uses the phrase "experiencing all bodies" or "experiencing the whole body". The mind is the same in cittanupassana. Unless consciousness descends or enters within the body & mind itself, there is no direct experience or existence of the body-mind.

For most human beings, the body is something seen via the eye and the mind something heard via the ear. As such, there is no arising of nama-rupa.

Just my ecsoteric opinion, which I cannot spell.

For your consideration,

Element
meindzai
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by meindzai »

clw_uk wrote:
If you are saying that the body refers to literal physical body/birth there is a sutta that states that the physical body originates from the 4 elements.

"The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the material form aggregate"
Yes, the physical body is form (rupa) You've left out 4 other aggregates which are name (nama) . You are a physicalist.

-M
Fruitzilla
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Fruitzilla »

meindzai wrote:
You are a physicalist.

-M
Not to be anal, but it seems to me that using "you are" in this way in a presumably buddhist discussion seems to be rather unskilfull.
Isn't "you're holding a physicalist view" more in tune with reality (anatta/anicca and such)?

I've often seen this and wonder about it everytime so I thouht i'd put it to words.

Cheers,
:toast:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

I can assure you that i am not a physcialist, i was merely talking about rupa and not the other aggregates.

:namaste:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Jason
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Jason »

meindzai wrote:You are a physicalist.
Nice ad hominem, M.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by mikenz66 »

Element wrote:
rowyourboat wrote:The buddha does talk about descent in to the womb an such like in the Mahanidana sutta when talking about the DO.
My opinion is the Mahanidana sutta is one sutta distinct from scores of others on the subject. Plus it is in the Digha Nikaya, which appears to be precursor to the Mahayana Suttas and thus doubtful if spoken by the Buddha. If so, it was spoken to Ananda, who was unenlightened and not ready for stream entry.
Element
If that is your opinion, there's always MN9, Sammaditthi Sutta, and presumably some others...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
26. "And what is birth, what is the origin of birth, what is the cessation of birth, what is the way leading to the cessation of birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth. With the arising of being there is the arising of birth. With the cessation of being there is the cessation of birth. The way leading to the cessation of birth is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.
Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

Isnt the "[in the womb] but something that has been added?

As for the bit that says acquisition of the aggregates, i see this as the new sense of "I" takes these up.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by mikenz66 »

Of course, you can interpret it as you wish. However you're ignoring the "spheres of various beings" and so on.

It doesn't matter to me what you and Element believe. However, it is important for readers to understand that your interpretations disagree with the standard Theravada interpretation, so that they can make up their own mind.

Personally, I try to enter a discussion with this in mind:
MN95 Canki Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth. But it is not yet an awakening to the truth.
Metta
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well i dont discount either interpretation as i can see that it can be interpreted both ways and still be viable and conductive.

I havent set in stone my understanding of D.O. as i am in no doubt that i still have much unknowing and so i am not appreciating it fully.I started this thread so that both sides could be voiced so people reading it could look at it from both angles which i feel can only be beneficial in the end.

:namaste:
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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gavesako
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Re: Dependent Origination

Post by gavesako »

I can recommend this article by Bhikkhu Bodhi for your consideration:

A Critical Examination of Ñānavīra Thera’s “A Note on Paticcasamuppada”
http://pathpress.wordpress.com/other/bodhi/
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations
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