Page 1 of 2

The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:24 am
by tiltbillings
Is the Theravada ordination lineage THE only valid lineage extant? If, yes, based upon what?

What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:19 am
by Bankei
Hi Tilt,

Sorry, I didn't see this before asking a similar question here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3199" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:23 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?
I suggest it would be a continuous sequence of ordinations, dating back to the Buddha, regardless of sectarian affiliation.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:24 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Bankei,
Bankei wrote:Hi Tilt,

Sorry, I didn't see this before asking a similar question here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3199" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually, you and I asked our questions before Tilt, but I suspect Tilt didn't exclusively want a Classical opinion (hence his choice to discuss this topic in the Dhammic Free-For-All).

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:32 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Bankei,
Bankei wrote:Hi Tilt,

Sorry, I didn't see this before asking a similar question here:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3199" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Actually, you and I asked our questions before Tilt, but I suspect Tilt didn't exclusively want a Classical opinion (hence his choice to discuss this topic in the Dhammic Free-For-All).

Metta,
Retro.
Bankei's question was put into the classical section frame work: what would be the traditional (sectarian) justification for rejecting (or accepting to some degree or other) other ordination lineages.

This thread would, likely, take a look at the question of ordination lineages in an historical context, which necessarily going to agree with the "classical" position.

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:29 am
by tiltbillings
A couple of things that are worth noting about ordination lineages. First is that belonging to an ordination lineage does not necessarily mean one belongs to a specific doctrinal lineage.

Secondly, most splits in ordination lineages were not schisms, but rather happened simply because of distance. There being no central papal-type authority in Buddhism, given the vastness of anciet India where groups are going to be separated from each other, it not surprising that various lineage developed. Also, the differences in the Vinayas are fairly minor, and are certainly not in the major rules.

Who is to say that a particular lineage does not trace itself back to the Buddha?

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:38 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Secondly, most splits in ordination lineages were not schisms, but rather happened simply because of distance. There being no central papal-type authority in Buddhism, given the vastness of anciet India where groups are going to be separated from each other, it not surprising that various lineage developed. Also, the differences in the Vinayas are fairly minor, and are certainly not in the major rules.
That's a good point. They could hardly log onto the Internet and see some kind of "central repository" for what the current Sutta and Vinaya was at any point in time... and as venerable Huifeng pointed out in another topic, it was early in the dispensation that bhikkhus were sent in different directions on different missions. It would be very naive to think that throughout that process somehow they all kept themselves synchronised with the latest teachings and injunctions of the Buddha. Differences in sutta and vinaya needn't be the result of malicious intent as is sometimes inferred.
tiltbillings wrote:Who is to say that a particular lineage does not trace itself back to the Buddha?
Does anybody say this?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:41 am
by tiltbillings
retrofuturist wrote: .
tiltbillings wrote:Who is to say that a particular lineage does not trace itself back to the Buddha?
Does anybody say this?)
Not that I am aware of, but to claim that a non-Theravadin lineage is not valid one would have to claim that or claim that the lineage in question is completely corrupt.

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:11 pm
by seanpdx
tiltbillings wrote:Is the Theravada ordination lineage THE only valid lineage extant?
No
tiltbillings wrote:What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?
Same basis as the theravadin lineage? =D

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:11 am
by Paññāsikhara
seanpdx wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is the Theravada ordination lineage THE only valid lineage extant?
No
tiltbillings wrote:What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?
Same basis as the theravadin lineage? =D
:goodpost:

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:04 am
by jcsuperstar
um isn't at least part of the classical thinking that the other monks aren't monks because of poor grammar? then come some heretical views and what not :tongue:

not to beat a dead horse here but Ven Sujato's sects and sectarianism covers this from the Mahavihara Theravada POV. he also mentions that Dharmagupta (the monk), although not ordained in the Mahavihara lineage was considered a highly respected thera by them (so why all the fuss over his lineage then?), and then there's good old Buddhaghosa ordained in India by who knows what lineage yet still considered Theravada...

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:11 am
by Paññāsikhara
Even the very issue of whether or not in ancient times bhikkhu/nis could / would travel and practice among a range of different "sects" / "traditions" / "lineages" or not is in dispute.

Many have argued that they did not. But often such arguments have been based on heavily sectarian literature. More broader research suggests that this practice was very common.

In india, I wonder how much Brahmanic ideas of caste influenced such things, the idea of purity through gotra and kula, the idea of purity through ritual - transferred to purity of ordination lineage and purity through ordination rite. I'm going to finish off Bronkhorst's book before going further with this, but the more I look beyond the Buddhist tradition alone, the more I think that there is something in this on a number of fronts.

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:30 am
by tiltbillings
jcsuperstar wrote:(so why all the fuss over his lineage then?),..
No fuss, really. Just a matter of clarification.

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:49 pm
by chownah
tiltbillings wrote:Is the Theravada ordination lineage THE only valid lineage extant? If, yes, based upon what?

What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?
We only have the six sense bases from which to make this "validity" determination......and since I guess we can't see, smell, hear, taste, or touch "validity" then I guess it must be one of those "thought" things.......so whatever one comes up with it is just an idea that has popped into someone's head......I guess you could say that "validity" is empty.....except perhaps when they validate my free parking sticker when I make a purchase at one of the stores in town....except for THAT the concept of "validity" is empty....I guess.
chownah

Re: The Validity of Non-Theravada Ordinations Lineages redux

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2010 7:55 pm
by tiltbillings
chownah wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Is the Theravada ordination lineage THE only valid lineage extant? If, yes, based upon what?

What basis do non-Theravadion ordination lineages claim validity?
We only have the six sense bases from which to make this "validity" determination......and since I guess we can't see, smell, hear, taste, or touch "validity" then I guess it must be one of those "thought" things.......so whatever one comes up with it is just an idea that has popped into someone's head......I guess you could say that "validity" is empty.....except perhaps when they validate my free parking sticker when I make a purchase at one of the stores in town....except for THAT the concept of "validity" is empty....I guess.
chownah
Really does not answer the question, does it?