Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hi all,

Can somebody point me to any schools (or teachers within Theravada) that emphasize the contemplation of emptiness without all the usual trappings of the Mayahanist schools (i.e. Bodhisattva vows, the second and third turnings of the Dharma Wheel)? I ask because this resonates strongly with my practice as it accords with science and thus my mind is less obstructed by doubt, etc. In addition, I've had about enough focus on dukkha for the time being. So I'm looking for some guidance on this subject from a teacher who has practiced this contemplation.



Thanks,


adosa

Buddhadasa Bhikkhu though he preferred the translation 'voidness'. I highly recommend his talks contained in the book Heartwood from the Bodhi Tree.

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Hi adosa.

You can read what the late Buddhadasa Bhikkhu had to say about emptiness in 'Heart Wood of the Bo Tree' here:

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Empt ... sa_Bhikkhu



Ven Ajahn Sumedho (Thai Forest Tradition) mentions abiding in emptiness here:

http://www.amaravati.org/abmnew/documen ... 14sar.html


Kind wishes,

Aloka

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Dwelling at Savatthi... Then Ven. Kaccayana Gotta approached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, 'Right view, right view,' it is said. To what extent is there right view?"

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view.

"'Everything exists': That is one extreme. 'Everything doesn't exist': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering."

Kaccayanagotta Sutta

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The previously mentioned Kaccayanagotta sutta SN 12.15 is mentioned by Nagarjuna in the Mulamadhyamakakarika.

A sutta I enjoy reading is Phena Sutta- Foam - SN 22.15

Excerpt:

"Form is like a glob of foam;
feeling, a bubble;
perception, a mirage;
fabrications, a banana tree;
consciousness, a magic trick —
this has been taught
by the Kinsman of the Sun.
However you observe them,
appropriately examine them,
they're empty, void
to whoever sees them
appropriately."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


There are a number of suttas which mention emptiness. However, I'm going off topic from the OP #1, sorry !

Thanks all for the reads.

Much obliged.


adosa

Pretty much all the early Buddhist schools featured sunnata / sunyata as an important part of their teachings.

In particular, the Sarvastivadins (before they were actually known as such) referred to themselves as the "sunyavadins" when they argued against the Pudgalavadins' theory of the "pudgala". They feature sunyata as one of the sixteen aspects of the four noble truths (four each). Along with anatman, these two were the only aspects that were applicable to all four truths. (The others like anitya being not applicable to the truth of cessation for instance.) It also featured heavily in their three samadhis system. They also have a few sutras that use "sunyata" as synonymous with dependent origination, such as the "mahasunyata-paryaya" and "paramartha-sunyata-paryaya". Neither of these sutras are found in Pali. However, they played an important role for several others schools, it seems. (eg. Sautrantika, and the *Satyasiddhi.)

Whenever the Mahasamghika sutras use "sunyata", it is often part of a set like this: The four immeasurables, loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity; then the three samadhis, emptiness, nothingness and the signless. (This latter form of the three samadhis may be older than the form emptiness, intentionless, signless.) There are suggestions that in fact the four immeasurables are used as the samatha basis for entrance into the three samadhis. ie. cultivate loving kindness up to deep dhyana, then turn to contemplation of not self. This pattern is similar to the sutra on Purification of Almsfood, and the Sunakkhata sutta. (From memory!)

The *Satyasiddhi Sastra also heavily features sunyata. However, it has more of a Mahasamghika turn to it. It is used not just as "empty of self", but a generic "empty of ..." So, they used it a lot as a synonym for nirodha / nirvana, the absence of (empty of) defilements, and / or absence of deluded conceptualization.

Whatever the case, I am not sure what you mean by "trappings" of Mahayana. If you like the idea, just use the idea. No need to take other parts like the bodhisattva-theory or whatever. They can work independently, so to speak.

In recent decades, scholars like Warder and Kalupahana have argued that Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamaka Karika is based on the Agamas, and not necessarily Mahayana at all. Actually, Yinshun already said this decades before that! It's entire content is consistent with readings of the Agamas, though not necessarily the Theravada interpretation. But after all, the Theravada was just one school. Other schools had their own take. In particular, Nagarjuna's association of sunyata with dependent origination and the middle way is perfectly in accord with those Sautrantika sutras mentioned above. Perhaps the Theravadins lost these texts at some point. Hard to say.

You'll just have to look beyond the usual stuff that is found in Pali sources, and possibly beyond Sanskrit sources, too.

Full disclosure: My PhD is on sunyata in the Prajnaparamita, following it's development through early and mainstream Nikayan Buddhism.

Greetings,

Aloka wrote:The previously mentioned Kaccayanagotta sutta SN 12.15 is mentioned by Nagarjuna in the Mulamadhyamakakarika.

A sutta I enjoy reading is Phena Sutta- Foam - SN 22.15

Mighty fine suttas they are too, Aloka. To quote SN 20.7, the suttas are "discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness", so you will find a lot in the suttas that is relevant to emptiness.

In addition to those recommended, consider also...

MN 122: Maha-suññata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ud 1.10: Bahiya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... and for a guided tour of how deep they really are, see Bhikkhu Ñänananda's...

Nibbana Sermons
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... rmon_8.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

adosa wrote:Can somebody point me to any schools (or teachers within Theravada) that emphasize the contemplation of emptiness without all the usually trappings of the Mayahanist schools (i.e. Bodhisattva vows, the second and third turnings of the Dharma Wheel)? I ask because this resonates strongly with my practice as it accords with science and thus my mind is less obstructed by doubt, etc. In addition, I've had about enough focus on dukkha for the time being. So I'm looking for some guidance on this subject from a teacher who has practiced this contemplation.

Most of the Theravadin meditation approaches have Impermanence, Un-satisfactoriness, and Not self as their basis. I think contemplation of these things gives one a handle into Emptiness, so one starts to experience Emptiness through experiencing and contemplating Impermanence, Un-satisfactoriness, and Not self.

I think if you sat down and decided I'm going to contemplate Emptiness you'd be creating a concept of Emptiness, which is not what you want to be doing, what you want to be doing is realising the Empty nature of your experience as you contemplate your experiences through the 6 sense doors. Emptiness dawns on you as wisdom arises, you don't need to go looking for it.

I think it's helpful to drop ideas like "Emptiness" or "what is this?" into your meditation from time to time, but not with expectation, not with creating a concept.

That's my 2c worth anyway.

Goofaholix wrote:

adosa wrote:Can somebody point me to any schools (or teachers within Theravada) that emphasize the contemplation of emptiness without all the usually trappings of the Mayahanist schools (i.e. Bodhisattva vows, the second and third turnings of the Dharma Wheel)? I ask because this resonates strongly with my practice as it accords with science and thus my mind is less obstructed by doubt, etc. In addition, I've had about enough focus on dukkha for the time being. So I'm looking for some guidance on this subject from a teacher who has practiced this contemplation.

Most of the Theravadin meditation approaches have Impermanence, Un-satisfactoriness, and Not self as their basis. I think contemplation of these things gives one a handle into Emptiness, so one starts to experience Emptiness through experiencing and contemplating Impermanence, Un-satisfactoriness, and Not self.

I think if you sat down and decided I'm going to contemplate Emptiness you'd be creating a concept of Emptiness, which is not what you want to be doing, what you want to be doing is realising the Empty nature of your experience as you contemplate your experiences through the 6 sense doors. Emptiness dawns on you as wisdom arises, you don't need to go looking for it.

I think it's helpful to drop ideas like "Emptiness" or "what is this?" into your meditation from time to time, but not with expectation, not with creating a concept.

That's my 2c worth anyway.

exactly what I had in my mind, but I couldn't have written it so clearly thanks

Paññāsikhara wrote:Full disclosure: My PhD is on sunyata in the Prajnaparamita, following it's development through early and mainstream Nikayan Buddhism.

What do you think of whatizname's little orange book on emptiness in the Agamas?

Greetings bhante,

Not sure if this is of any use or interest, but I read this once and it seemed interesting enough...

Proto-Maadhyamika in the Paali canon
By Luis O. Gomez
Philosophy East and West
26:2 April 1976
p. 137-165

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/gomez.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Aloka wrote:The previously mentioned Kaccayanagotta sutta SN 12.15 is mentioned by Nagarjuna in the Mulamadhyamakakarika.

A sutta I enjoy reading is Phena Sutta- Foam - SN 22.15

Mighty fine suttas they are too, Aloka. To quote SN 20.7, the suttas are "discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness", so you will find a lot in the suttas that is relevant to emptiness.

In addition to those recommended, consider also...

MN 122: Maha-suññata Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ud 1.10: Bahiya Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... and for a guided tour of how deep they really are, see Bhikkhu Ñänananda's...

Nibbana Sermons
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... rmon_8.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro.

Hi Retro,

Thanks - I found some others too but don't have the references here with me at the moment.

I'm enjoying my investigations of the suttas so much !


with metta,

Aloka

Paññāsikhara wrote:Pretty much all the early Buddhist schools featured sunnata / sunyata as an important part of their teachings.

In particular, the Sarvastivadins (before they were actually known as such) referred to themselves as the "sunyavadins" when they argued against the Pudgalavadins' theory of the "pudgala". They feature sunyata as one of the sixteen aspects of the four noble truths (four each). Along with anatman, these two were the only aspects that were applicable to all four truths. (The others like anitya being not applicable to the truth of cessation for instance.) It also featured heavily in their three samadhis system. They also have a few sutras that use "sunyata" as synonymous with dependent origination, such as the "mahasunyata-paryaya" and "paramartha-sunyata-paryaya". Neither of these sutras are found in Pali. However, they played an important role for several others schools, it seems. (eg. Sautrantika, and the *Satyasiddhi.)

Whenever the Mahasamghika sutras use "sunyata", it is often part of a set like this: The four immeasurables, loving kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity; then the three samadhis, emptiness, nothingness and the signless. (This latter form of the three samadhis may be older than the form emptiness, intentionless, signless.) There are suggestions that in fact the four immeasurables are used as the samatha basis for entrance into the three samadhis. ie. cultivate loving kindness up to deep dhyana, then turn to contemplation of not self. This pattern is similar to the sutra on Purification of Almsfood, and the Sunakkhata sutta. (From memory!)

The *Satyasiddhi Sastra also heavily features sunyata. However, it has more of a Mahasamghika turn to it. It is used not just as "empty of self", but a generic "empty of ..." So, they used it a lot as a synonym for nirodha / nirvana, the absence of (empty of) defilements, and / or absence of deluded conceptualization.

Whatever the case, I am not sure what you mean by "trappings" of Mahayana. If you like the idea, just use the idea. No need to take other parts like the bodhisattva-theory or whatever. They can work independently, so to speak.

In recent decades, scholars like Warder and Kalupahana have argued that Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamaka Karika is based on the Agamas, and not necessarily Mahayana at all. Actually, Yinshun already said this decades before that! It's entire content is consistent with readings of the Agamas, though not necessarily the Theravada interpretation. But after all, the Theravada was just one school. Other schools had their own take. In particular, Nagarjuna's association of sunyata with dependent origination and the middle way is perfectly in accord with those Sautrantika sutras mentioned above. Perhaps the Theravadins lost these texts at some point. Hard to say.

You'll just have to look beyond the usual stuff that is found in Pali sources, and possibly beyond Sanskrit sources, too.

Full disclosure: My PhD is on sunyata in the Prajnaparamita, following it's development through early and mainstream Nikayan Buddhism.

Thank you Bhante for taking the time to answer my questions. First by "trappings" I meant no slight to the Mahayana. I simply see some of the teachings, albeit from my limited knowledge of them, as later add-ons and I, personally, have a heard time understanding how they would work (i.e. the Bodhisattva vows, etc.). I do however find a great deal of benefit for my practice in seeing the empty and interconnected, dependent nature of all phenomenon whether that is outside the mind or inside it. I'm seeing all phenomenon functioning the same regardless and as such they almost appear to be one in the same, dependent on conditions and void of any inherent, independent nature. Maybe this is leading somewhere, maybe not but it is a recurring observation in my meditation. So that was the basis of my question.

From what I can see you listed a number of other schools and thinkers by which I might pursue some more study. I've done some brief searching on the web to see if I could find any more information on these early suttas but I have found very little. What do you think about "The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way: Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika." ? From what you wrote it seems that this might be in line with what I am trying to put into words.

I realize at this point I'm conceptualizing and much, much more work needs to be done. But at some point isn't a working understanding of these concepts required in order to realize phenomenon's true nature through meditation?

At any rate, thanks to everyone again for taking the time to answer my questions.


adosa

adosa wrote:I realize at this point I'm conceptualizing and much, much more work needs to be done. But at some point isn't a working understanding of these concepts required in order to realize phenomenon's true nature through meditation?

Yes it's good to have a working understanding as long as you know it for what it is, just a working understanding. It's the scaffolding not the building itself, eventually when the building is built the scaffolding needs to be demolished.

However you were asking about the contemplation of emptiness which suggests you are wanting to go beyond a working understanding and expect to gain insight into emptiness through a practice of contemplating that working understanding, i'm not sure that would work.