Do you think you ever met Arahant?

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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Clueless Git » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:51 am

Thai_Theravada wrote:Do you think you ever met Arahant?, and if you think you do.
Let's share your experience.

:smile:

I think I might have done, once ...

Turned out, and it was not easy to find out, that he was a Christian NOT a buddhist though.

To be clear I'm not sure, But!

If the buddha really did that say that untold buddhas had been before him, that untold buddhas were yet to come. That buddhas had and would continue to arise from many different paths .. Then must not the same be true of Aharants?
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:56 am

Clueless Git wrote:If the buddha really did that say that untold buddhas had been before him, that untold buddhas were yet to come. That buddhas had and would continue to arise from many different paths .. Then must not the same be true of Aharants?

Many different paths? I do not think the Buddha said that. What one gets from the earilest texts is that the Buddhas teach the same thing, and core of the Buddha's teaching being paticcasamuppada. While your Christian may have a considerable degree of refinement and even some degree of insight, I rather doubt a Christian could be an arahant.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Nibbida » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:07 pm

TMingyur wrote:A certificate or diploma would do as well ... but who would issue these? :rofl:


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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby PeterB » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:29 pm

Nibbida wrote:
TMingyur wrote:A certificate or diploma would do as well ... but who would issue these? :rofl:


"Get Accredited Life Experience Online Degrees for what you already know"

http://www.ashwooduniversity.net/

How would help in identifying an Arahant , which would involve that which most of us would certainly NOT know ?
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby PeterB » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:31 pm

Nibbida wrote:Like Bhikku Pesala said, I would have no idea if I ever have. Wouldn't it be interesting to live as if every person you met was potentially an arahant?

If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him. But be nice to arahants. :anjali:

Thats one of those iconoclastic Zenny things is it ?...right.
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby meindzai » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:59 pm

tiltbillings wrote:While your Christian may have a considerable degree of refinement and even some degree of insight, I rather doubt a Christian could be an arahant.


Yes, quite impossible, since Arahants have eliminated identity views inherent in christian doctrine, would not subscribe to eternalism, and having dispelled all doubt about the Dhamma they could not possibly follow another practice. Unless they were secretly Buddhists and just lied about it, except that they can't!

But highly virtuous, patient, wise in worldly matters, with a clear and quiet mind that free from remorse about misdeeds, capable of attaining even deep states of concentration, extremely compassionate - certainly. And quite admirably so, in many cases. These are by no means qualities limited to Buddhists.

-M
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Clueless Git » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:44 am

meindzai wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:While your Christian may have a considerable degree of refinement and even some degree of insight, I rather doubt a Christian could be an arahant.


Yes, quite impossible ...

Having thought on it some more I'm inclined to agree ...

I remember reading the defining characteristics of an Aharant in a book by bikkhu Nanamoli. Cant remember them all but I do remember that one was along the lines of possessing a 'seamless' ability to spot contradiction and paradox.

That would be mutualy exclusive with theistic belief so far as I can see.
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby PeterB » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:56 am

There is a whole raft of beliefs which would prevent a Christian from acheiving Arahantship.
Curiously though according to many Mahayana teachers , those same beliefs would not stop a Christian from being a Bodhisattva.

Clearly we are talking about two very different concepts of Buddhist realisation.
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Monkey Mind » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:08 pm

PeterB wrote:Clearly we are talking about two very different concepts of Buddhist realisation.

Yeah, I was wondering if the results of this informal poll would be similar or different if asked on the Mahayana forum: "Have you ever met a Bodhisattva?" I suspect that many practitioners believe their root teachers or Dharma masters to be fully enlightened. This is not a criticism, just an observation that on this side of the fence, people seem to be a lot more conservative about making such claims.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Monkey Mind » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:17 pm

After I posted that, it occurred to me that I already know the answer... Rinpoches....
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:43 pm

Monkey Mind wrote:After I posted that, it occurred to me that I already know the answer... Rinpoches....

Yeah, like Steven Seagal.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Monkey Mind » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Monkey Mind wrote:After I posted that, it occurred to me that I already know the answer... Rinpoches....

Yeah, like Steven Seagal.

:shrug: You have to admit, there was something particularly enlightened about his performance in "Under Siege".
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:38 pm

Monkey Mind wrote:After I posted that, it occurred to me that I already know the answer... Rinpoches....


funny I wasn't refering to my root anything but a teacher I met, who just so happend to inspire me greatly, I don't consider him my teacher, rather someone I met.
My root teacher (to use your words) I do not consider to be on the path but deluded.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Monkey Mind » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:12 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Monkey Mind wrote:After I posted that, it occurred to me that I already know the answer... Rinpoches....

Yeah, like Steven Seagal.

Saw this on another board:
http://movies.msn.com/the-wrap/steve-seagal-sued/story/?GT1=28101
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:22 am

Greetings Monkey Mind,

Monkey Mind wrote:Yeah, I was wondering if the results of this informal poll would be similar or different if asked on the Mahayana forum: "Have you ever met a Bodhisattva?" I suspect that many practitioners believe their root teachers or Dharma masters to be fully enlightened. This is not a criticism, just an observation that on this side of the fence, people seem to be a lot more conservative about making such claims.


At one end of the spectrum you've got a devotional "guru" mentality, and on the other end you've got a "kalyana-mitta" (spiritual friend) mentality when it comes to those we take as teachers. Whilst Theravada isn't completely at one or the other (and is most realistically represented by a range, rather than an actual point) there's certainly a greater relative focus on kalyana-mitta with respect to the Mahayana, and even moreso with respect to Vajrayana. Sometimes in cross-tradition discussions this aspect is overlooked and some people supplant structures from one tradition, and are surprised (and sometimes even offended) when they find the hierarchial structures they are familiar with in their tradition or country, not being strictly adhered to, or acknowledged by other practitioners elsewhere.

Personally, the only people and things I'm inclined to "elevate", are the Buddha, the Dhamma and the noble Sangha (i.e. the Triple Gem). I find that to be the safest and most reliable approach.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Ben » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:31 am

retrofuturist wrote:Personally, the only people and things I'm inclined to "elevate", are the Buddha, the Dhamma and the noble Sangha (i.e. the Triple Gem). I find that to be the safest and most reliable approach.


Well said, Retro.
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Tex » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:26 am

I suspect it doesn't matter.

I'm sure the Buddha had his reasons for requiring that monks not disclose attainments to the laity, and I also take that to indicate that I, as a layman, should refrain from speculating on others' attainments.

:anjali:
"The serene and peaceful mind is the true epitome of human achievement."-- Ajahn Chah, Living Dhamma

"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Dan74 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:36 am

When I first met my teacher I thought she might've been enlightened. I am sure if I told her now she'd laugh her head off!

But what she did have is a quality of clarity and presence I had not encountered before. And like others have said what yardstick have we got to measure the degree of other people's enlightenment except for some standards in the scriptures that we may not be in the position to verify. So we might tend to think the most enlightened person we know is an arahat.

If that person is indeed close to arahatship, then placing your trust in him or her and worshiping them as a living embodiment of the ideal one is striving toward may actually be really helpful for practice (e.g. guru devotion).

(I don't know why I am the de facto Vajrayana advocate on this forum. Vajrayana seems to be the favourite whipping boy of Buddhist schools here and no one else seems to want to stand up for it.)
_/|\_
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:01 am

how would i even know?
most people dont even have a firm grasp over the nature of their own mind from moment to moment how can they possibly be expected to know the quality of another's?
Last edited by jcsuperstar on Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you think you ever met Arahant?

Postby Ben » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:30 am

Dan74 wrote:If that person is indeed close to arahatship, then placing your trust in him or her and worshiping them as a living embodiment of the ideal one is striving toward may actually be really helpful for practice (e.g. guru devotion).


I'll have to disagree with you on that one Dan.
kind regards

Ben
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.

Taṃ nadīhi vijānātha:
sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

Sutta Nipata 3.725


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