the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:00 pm

kirk5a wrote:I'm pretty sure the distinction between "right view with effluents" ('mundane' right view) and noble right view is not at all the notion that mundane right view is for Hindus and noble right view for those who are seeking liberation. Nobody can just 'decide' to have noble right view. It's noble precisely because, as Tilt said, there is some degree of awakening to the "view" which is the way things actually are.


That's how I understand it. The progression from mundane to supramundane Right View is effectively a progression from understanding to direct insight.
There's also a comprehensive description of Right View in the Sammaditthi Sutta, The Discourse on Right View ( MN9 ).

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Pondera » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:40 pm

If you believe that one is reborn after dying in this world, so as to become another "being" -or what have you in another world; that is solely, completely for you to decide on or determine. As far as Buddhism goes, the only way to discount that the phenomena of rebirth was definitively a truth of reality for the Buddha himself is to go as far as to discount all references in Buddhist readings that pertain to the three-fold knowledge. In MN 71, and many other places that I simply can't recall, the Buddha expresses an attainment over three things, forsooth -they are; recollection of past lives whenever he should desire to have them; the knowledge of being's comings and goings through the round of rebirth according to their deeds; and an ability to completely put an end to all mental fermentation, thus setting him entirely free from samsara -whenever he should so desire to do such a thing.

In other places, the Buddha (and I'm too rushed at the moment to site the scripture); the Buddha explains the benefits of his teachings to people who aren't sure either way about the reality or superstition of rebirth, as it may or may not be the case according to the law of existence. He explains that whether you believe in rebirth or not, you will obtain happiness here and now if you follow the path laid out by him. So, the evidence suggests that the Buddha existed in a world, which so happens to be the same one we exist in, where a reincarnation of one's "I" is altogether the reality of nature; though we have a trouble understanding how such a thing could be when it is clearly expressed that there is not a self to be seen. So speculations are all one can really make as to the nature of the soul and transmigration, e.g. will it be "me" who exists in another life, or ... "what"?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby David N. Snyder » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:50 pm

Over 2,500 posts in this thread!

The member who started this thread, jcsuperstar (James Brand) passed away exactly one year ago today.

In Memorium

James Brand (1976 - 2010) passed away at the young age of 34 on August 30, 2010. He was a beacon of light to Dhamma Wheel and his family. May he be well, happy, and peaceful.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby bodom » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:19 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Over 2,500 posts in this thread!

The member who started this thread, jcsuperstar (James Brand) passed away exactly one year ago today.

In Memorium

James Brand (1976 - 2010) passed away at the young age of 34 on August 30, 2010. He was a beacon of light to Dhamma Wheel and his family. May he be well, happy, and peaceful.


:heart:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:38 am

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:27 am

Image :heart:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby plwk » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:27 am

:buddha1:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

Anguttara-Nikaya: Ekanipata: Ekadhammapali: Pañhamavagga
VSM VMM WBB TBHT WTBT My Page
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:36 am

He was a good guy. May his rebirth be auspicious.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:55 am

bodom wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Over 2,500 posts in this thread!

The member who started this thread, jcsuperstar (James Brand) passed away exactly one year ago today.

In Memorium

James Brand (1976 - 2010) passed away at the young age of 34 on August 30, 2010. He was a beacon of light to Dhamma Wheel and his family. May he be well, happy, and peaceful.


:heart:

:anjali:


James, you are dearly missed.
My merits to you and all whom you loved.
:anjali:
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby PeterB » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:43 am

:heart: For James. And for his family.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Digity » Mon Sep 05, 2011 5:41 am

Sorry to hear that. I wish him peace in his next life and the opportunity to continue his practice.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Cilla » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:00 am

Peter wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I also believe that the Buddha was more intent on removing the 'self' or 'atman' from people's perceptions, and thereby removing eternalist and annihilationist views than he was about convincing people about 'rebirth'.

I don't think he needed to convince most people about rebirth. Wasn't it the dominant belief at the time? much as annihilation is the dominant belief of our time? Hence back then he was intent on removing eternalist views whereas if he was around today maybe he'd be intent on removing nihilist views. Just my opinion, though.


It does not follow that just because the buddha was intent on removing eternalist view when he was around, that if he were around now, he would be intent on removing nihilist views - if by that you mean that there is no purpose to life. I wonder really if he would be concerned very much at all to get us to believe that there is any more life to live after this one. If the buddha was mainly concerned with how to end suffering, then surely he would be satisifed to try to teach how to do that in this world since all the suffering we experience occurs this in this world. I know that some people can't face the idea of not surviving death but is that really the main cause of suffering that anyone carries around with them. Do'nt you think the suffering that people experience is significantly more caused by the way we actually function in our day to day lives. We are the source and cause of our own suffering for the most part. Yes there are some other causes of suffering such as when our bad parent abuses us as a child, or if we get robbed by a complete stranger. I think if the buddha were alive today he would not teach that these things happen to us because of something in a past life. I think he is more rational than that. Given chaos theory, he might simply be inclined to help people accept bad luck and that there is no meaning behind it, i mean no reason for it. Sure meaning comes out of bad experiences so he might try to teach how to make the most of a bad situation.

But back to where you were. YOu were saying that he would be keen to tackle the dominant problematic belief that causes suffering so i think he would tackle consumerism. That causes far more suffering than a belief that we might not survive death. If one wants to think that consumerism and a materialist lifestyle cause suffering due by way of a lack of meaning in our lives, it does not follow that he would encourage a belief in an absent god or a better future life after this one.

That said, in answer to the original point of this thread, i have no belief in reincarnation. I cannot believe in such things. Furthermore, i have no wish to. I am fine with life ending when i die. I am fine with being extinguished. I think the value of the buddha's teaching comes from practicing the values and ethics in the eightfold path, trying to acquire wisdom according to the eightfold path and practicing meditation according to the best methods that work for you and that you can find.
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Reincarnation/Rebirth and mind/body duality

Postby KevinSolway » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:14 am

It is my view that "birth" in Buddhism has nothing whatsoever to do with physical birth, but that it refers to the birth of the false "I", which repeatedly occurs in non-Buddhas. Likewise "Ageing and death" refers to the natural ending of happiness that is associated with attachments. These things happen moment by moment.

I've made a video which outlines my disagreement with the popular view of rebirth, and I welcome responses from the people here. I do realize that not all Buddhists believe in the literal interpretation, and that many Buddhists have no opinion on the matter at all.

Nonsense in Buddhism II
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jmx181ODtQ
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Re: Reincarnation/Rebirth and mind/body duality

Postby Ben » Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:53 am

Greetings Kevin,

We already have a thread dedicated for the discussion and debate of the notion of rebirth. For the sake of housekeeping and ensuring this doesn't duplicate the "Great Rebirth Thread", I will merge the two threads.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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No rebirth

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:53 pm

I think most Buddhists believe in rebirth but is it possible maybe there is no rebirth?
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Re: No rebirth

Postby Jhana4 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:04 pm

Why ask it as a question?
Nobody knows what happens after death. Period.
If anything the question should have been worded

"Is it possible that there is rebirth?"
In reading the scriptures, there are two kinds of mistakes:
One mistake is to cling to the literal text and miss the inner principles.
The second mistake is to recognize the principles but not apply them to your own mind, so that you waste time and just make them into causes of entanglement.
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Re: No rebirth

Postby BlueLotus » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:13 pm

Jhana4 wrote:the question should have been worded "Is it possible that there is rebirth?"


But Why ask it as a question? Nobody knows what happens after death. Period.

:rofl:
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Re: No rebirth

Postby reflection » Fri Nov 04, 2011 3:52 pm

Buddhism isn't about belief, at least not for me.
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Re: No rebirth

Postby santa100 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 4:32 pm

Bhikkhu Bodhi's link below might be useful:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_06.html
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Re: No rebirth

Postby Fede » Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:16 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
Jhana4 wrote:the question should have been worded "Is it possible that there is rebirth?"


But Why ask it as a question? Nobody knows what happens after death. Period.

:rofl:


So may I ask the point of YOUR question?
Because the answer to
"Is it possible that maybe there is no rebirth?" and "Is it possible that there is rebirth?"
is yes.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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