the great rebirth debate

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clw_uk
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:52 am

The "I will be" and "I will not be" are also the foundation of the view of Annihilationism


So that speculative view arises just because of ignorance based contact, and the birthing of "I am"


So when ignorance is dispelled, then "I will be" or "I will not be" does not arise, so the view of anniliationism is abandoned and set aside (same for the other speculative views)



This is also why debating about what happens to an Arahant after death is pointless, because when there is no more ignorance then concepts such as "existence and non-existence" just simply do not arise in the mind.

The flood of views has been abandoned, dukkha has been abandoned :woohoo:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:51 am

clw_uk wrote:The "I will be" and "I will not be" are also the foundation of the view of Annihilationism


So that speculative view arises just because of ignorance based contact, and the birthing of "I am"


So when ignorance is dispelled, then "I will be" or "I will not be" does not arise, so the view of anniliationism is abandoned and set aside (same for the other speculative views)



This is also why debating about what happens to an Arahant after death is pointless, because when there is no more ignorance then concepts such as "existence and non-existence" just simply do not arise in the mind.

The flood of views has been abandoned, dukkha has been abandoned :woohoo:

I agree with you, the buddha never declared what happens after death to Arahants and himself.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:13 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis.


All the aggregates are continually rising and falling. But I don't see how that gets us any closer to a coherent moment-to-moment interpretation of DO.

I would say that if the elements of DO are constantly being reborn that in itself is a coherent moment to moment interpretation of DO. What are you looking for? Are you looking for some over arching self which represents DO which gets reborn?
chownah

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:17 am

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis.


All the aggregates are continually rising and falling. But I don't see how that gets us any closer to a coherent moment-to-moment interpretation of DO.

I would say that if the elements of DO are constantly being reborn that in itself is a coherent moment to moment interpretation of DO. What are you looking for? Are you looking for some over arching self which represents DO which gets reborn?
chownah


No, I'm looking for a intelligible and coherent explanation of DO which is consistent with the way the nidanas are described in SN12.2, and consistent with the way that phassa, vedana, etc are described in the suttas. The moment-to-moment interpretations of rebirth only seem to work if one starts redefining key terms.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:30 am

clw_uk wrote:Feeling isn't ignorant, feeling is feeling. However Ignorance transforms feelings into craving through pursuing.
An example I can give is when I'm in meditation and my legs hurt. When there is ignorance, then there is aversion to the feeling and the birth in the mind of "I am in pain etc" and the dukkha that is bound with that. However when there is no ignorance, then painful feeling is just a sensation. There is no "me" created and its as if the painful feeling isn't there, feeling has ceased. This I feel is the cessation of the mind and body.


I broadly agree with your analysis here, but I'm still not sure about your idea that the birth of I am results from the aversion. It looks to me the other way round, ie the aversion is a result of underlying self-view. In other words the aversion to the pain stems from the underlying assumption that there is an I to which the pain is happening. And of course these assumptions of self are fetters which need to be overcome.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby chownah » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:04 am

In this sutta it mentions, "a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth". Seems like people usually think of this in terms of being subject to ones own birth.....which of course is an expression of a doctrine of self. This sutta clearly talks about being freed of birth but it does not indicate in any way that it is the birth of the individual. It talks about being freed from death but it does not indicate that it is the death of the individual. It sort of points to the non rebirth of the processes which lead to suffering......maybe rebirth can be viewed as pointing to the rebirth of the false sense of self as supported by the many facets of DO and associated path factors such as mentioned below.
chownah

AN 10.108
PTS: A v 218
Virecana (Tikicchaka) Sutta: A Purgative
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Monks, doctors give a purgative for warding off diseases caused by bile, diseases caused by phlegm, diseases caused by the internal wind property. There is a purging there; I don't say that there's not, but it sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails. So I will teach you the noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails, a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to aging are freed from aging; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said: "Now, what is the noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails, a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to aging are freed from aging; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair?

"In one who has right view, wrong view is purged away, and the many evil, unskillful mental qualities that come into play in dependence on wrong view are purged away as well, while the many skillful mental qualities that depend on right view go to the culmination of their development.

"In one who has right resolve, wrong resolve is purged away...

"In one who has right speech, wrong speech is purged away...

"In one who has right action, wrong action is purged away...

"In one who has right livelihood, wrong livelihood is purged away...

"In one who has right effort, wrong effort is purged away...

"In one who has right mindfulness, wrong mindfulness is purged away...

"In one who has right concentration, wrong concentration is purged away...

"In one who has right knowledge, wrong knowledge is purged away...

"In one who has right release, wrong release is purged away, and the many evil, unskillful mental qualities that come into play in dependence on wrong release are purged away as well, while the many skillful mental qualities that depend on right release go to the culmination of their development.

"This, monks, is the noble purgative that always succeeds and never fails, a purgative whereby beings subject to birth are freed from birth; beings subject to aging are freed from aging; beings subject to death are freed from death; beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are freed from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair."

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:35 am

I broadly agree with your analysis here, but I'm still not sure about your idea that the birth of I am results from the aversion.



I can see where you are coming from but I would have to disagree, it doesnt match what I read in the Suttas or from my own experience


"There is Bhikkhus the mind, there are mental phenomena, there is the element of ignorance. When the uninstructed ... is contacted by a feeling born of ignorance-contact, "I am" occurs to him


SN III 47.5

So this explains that when there is a reaction to aversion, because of ignorance, "I am" comes to be.

It therefore naturally follows that when we dont sucumb to aversion etc, then "I am" does not arise.


However if I agree with you for the sake of argument, then I have to ask where this sense of "I am" comes from if it is not caused by ignorance based contact?

What is its origination?
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Dr. Dukkha » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:46 pm

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?
"There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting."

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby TheNoBSBuddhist » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:51 pm

The Middle Way.
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:57 pm

Dr. Dukkha wrote:"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?


Do you have a quote reference?
Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
I sit alone and listen to my heart,
Pleased with my little corner of the earth,
Glad that I came--not sorry to depart
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:23 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Dr. Dukkha wrote:"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?


Do you have a quote reference?

Sutra number 57 majjhima nikaya.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 11:39 pm

The sutra is repeated in the anguttara nikaya. I will check this later.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:09 am

Thanks Nikaya


12. "What is neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening that leads to the exhaustion of kamma? As to these (three kinds of kamma), any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark with dark ripening, any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is bright with bright ripening, and any volition in abandoning the kind of kamma that is dark-and bright with dark-and-bright ripening: this is called neither-dark-nor-bright kamma with neither-dark-nor-bright ripening."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... 8.html#dog


This is the aspiration to be free from Dukkha, and the following of the NEFP which leads to nibbana and the ending of D.O.

The ending of grasping and the birth of "I am", and so the ending of intentional action. It is also the ending of kamma-vipaka (result of kamma) since the result of kamma can only be experienced when a "self" is generated into a mental state such as like an animal, deva or hungry ghost (such as a crack addict) through grasping.


""And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma.""


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... kamma.html


The NEFP is not Kamma generative since its not based on grasping and the constant birthing of "me"

Its not Kamma resultant since the NEFP doesnt lead to birth of "self" in the various mental states, or "realms" as they are worded in the suttas.


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Lost to a world in which I crave no part,
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:05 pm

clw_uk wrote:It therefore naturally follows that when we dont sucumb to aversion etc, then "I am" does not arise.


You may be right, I'm still trying to work out the meaning of the SN22.81 passage we were looking at ( relevant bit below ). It seems to be saying that the assumption of form being self arises when craving arises, ie identification with the aggregates arises when craving arises - is that your understanding? From a practical point of view it seems a bit chicken and egg because without insight into anatta craving will continue to arise - in other words until the assumption of form being self is seen through, craving will persist.

"There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person....assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that."
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Nikaya35 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:54 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Dr. Dukkha wrote:"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."

How does following the Noble Eightfold Path generate neither dark nor bright kamma and not bright kamma? What makes it separate?


Do you have a quote reference?

Anguttara nikaya the book of fours sutras 232- 238. :smile:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sun Aug 10, 2014 9:15 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:It therefore naturally follows that when we dont sucumb to aversion etc, then "I am" does not arise.

You may be right, I'm still trying to work out the meaning of the SN22.81 passage we were looking at.


I came across an interesting note by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his SN translation. It's note 63 on page 1057, which refers to SN22.47, a similar passage to SN22.81:

Ignorance is the most fundamental condition underlying this process, and when this is activated by feeling it gives rise to the notion "I am" - a manifestation of craving and conceit. The idea "I am this" arises subsequently when the vacuous "I" is given a content by being identified with one or another of the five aggregates.
This passage presents us with an alternative version of dependent origination, where the "way of regarding things" and notion "I am" belong to the causally active side of the past existence; the five faculties to the resultant side of the present existence; and the recurrance of the notion "I am" to the causal side of the present existence. This in turn will generate renewed existence in the future.
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:11 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:It therefore naturally follows that when we dont sucumb to aversion etc, then "I am" does not arise.

You may be right, I'm still trying to work out the meaning of the SN22.81 passage we were looking at.


I came across an interesting note by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his SN translation. It's note 63 on page 1057, which refers to SN22.47, a similar passage to SN22.81:

Ignorance is the most fundamental condition underlying this process, and when this is activated by feeling it gives rise to the notion "I am" - a manifestation of craving and conceit. The idea "I am this" arises subsequently when the vacuous "I" is given a content by being identified with one or another of the five aggregates.
This passage presents us with an alternative version of dependent origination, where the "way of regarding things" and notion "I am" belong to the causally active side of the past existence; the five faculties to the resultant side of the present existence; and the recurrance of the notion "I am" to the causal side of the present existence. This in turn will generate renewed existence in the future.



Which is a nice way to twist the sutta into bhikkhu bodis preferred three life times model. He does it quite often, for example his writings that imply there is "something" beyond death for an arahant, despite no real evidence for that in the suttas.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:53 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I came across an interesting note by Bhikkhu Bodhi in his SN translation. It's note 63 on page 1057, which refers to SN22.47, a similar passage to SN22.81:

Ignorance is the most fundamental condition underlying this process, and when this is activated by feeling it gives rise to the notion "I am" - a manifestation of craving and conceit. The idea "I am this" arises subsequently when the vacuous "I" is given a content by being identified with one or another of the five aggregates.
This passage presents us with an alternative version of dependent origination, where the "way of regarding things" and notion "I am" belong to the causally active side of the past existence; the five faculties to the resultant side of the present existence; and the recurrance of the notion "I am" to the causal side of the present existence. This in turn will generate renewed existence in the future.



Which is a nice way to twist the sutta into bhikkhu bodis preferred three life times model. He does it quite often, for example his writings that imply there is "something" beyond death for an arahant, despite no real evidence for that in the suttas.


I posted it because it confirms the idea of moment-to-moment rebirth - so I was agreeing with you!

I'm not clear whether the second paragraph is talking about different lifetimes or just about past, present and future. Ignore it if you like.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Kusala » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:38 pm

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"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

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Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:43 am

kusala wrote:"My Past Life Regression story"


I'm a qualified hypnotherapist and I would never try "past life regression" with other people because cryptomnesia can manifest, family/group memories, a vivid imagination etc.

My former Tibetan Buddhist teacher (rather than strangers on YouTube videos) told me not to practice past life regression because its completely "unreliable." He also told me that even though he was a Tulku (reincarnated teacher) he couldn't remember any past lives.



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