the great rebirth debate

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation
User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 3756
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:48 am

I never implied anything of the sort. Knowing that Iron Age people mastered the Buddhist Path, your comparison of it with quantum mechanics is laughable. It's a blatant caricature of what I said.


But a justified one since you made the assertion that I was implying that Dhamma was as simple as ABC.

Apologies if it came across that way, my intent was to argue that the Dhamma is not necessarily as hard as it's sometimes made out to be, so in essence I was trying to show encouragement. My reference to quantum mechanics was in response to your (apparent) assertion that Dhamma is very hard to understand (like quantum mechanics).


However we are getting off track, and if it gets you to answer my main (repeated) question, then I will admit defeat in this part of the discussion.

So:

"What is right view without taints?"


You are saying "it's not that hard". That implies that you've completed the work which, of course, you haven't.


How do you know that? I'm not saying I have but it's difficult to take you seriously when you succumb to logical fallacies such as this one.

You don't know what my attainment is, if any.

clw_uk wrote:
And please answer my last post

No, I'm afraid not. We're talking past each other here. I'll probably come back later but I'm done with this conversation for now.



What is right view without taints?
"And do you think that unto such as you, A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew, God gave a secret and denied it me! Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!

Omar Khayyám

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3332
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:32 am

clw_uk wrote:What is right view without taints?


From MN117: "And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view..."

Does "analysis of qualities" here refer to dhamma-vicaya?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:15 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:What is right view without taints?


From MN117: "And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view..."

Does "analysis of qualities" here refer to dhamma-vicaya?


It appears to be a translation of dhamma vicaya. "Analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening" is dhamma­vicaya­sam­boj­jhaṅgo

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3332
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Tue Aug 19, 2014 5:48 pm

culaavuso wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote:What is right view without taints?


From MN117: "And what is the right view that is noble, without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening, the path factor of right view..."

Does "analysis of qualities" here refer to dhamma-vicaya?


It appears to be a translation of dhamma vicaya. "Analysis of qualities as a factor for awakening" is dhamma­vicaya­sam­boj­jhaṅgo


Thanks!
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:51 pm

I found this, which I will call the degenerative loop of suffering (dukkha):

"And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints?

There are three taints:

the taint of sensual desire,

the taint of being and

the taint of ignorance.

With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints.

With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view... right concentration."

— MN 9 (Ñanamoli/Bodhi, trans.)


source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... vijja.html

So, the way I read this: "Ignorance, the root cause of dukkha, is a type of taint. When ignorance arises, all taints (3) arise: ignorance, being, and sensual desire.

My questions are:

"Can one be ignorant if one does not first exist?"...if we aren't already "being".

"Can one have desire if they do not first exist?"...since only beings have desires.

If the above makes sense, then: "How does one come into being?" Do we as beings just arise? If so, what is the cause? :shrug:

Dependent Co-Arising states:

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition do aging and death come?' one should say, 'Aging and death come from birth as their requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does clinging come?' one should say, 'Clinging comes from craving as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does craving come?' one should say, 'Craving comes from feeling as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does feeling come?' one should say, 'Feeling comes from contact as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for contact?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'


So, it appears to me that consciousness arises concurrently from name and form, which in turn is the cause for all other factors leading to dukkha.

Therefore, should we all strive to be unconscious as a means to end dukkha, or should we live in accordance with The Noble Eight Fold Path? The prior seems to me to be less work. :thinking:

source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:18 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:My questions are:

"Can one be ignorant if one does not first exist?"...if we aren't already "being".

"Can one have desire if they do not first exist?"...since only beings have desires.


SN 12.12: Moḷiyaphagguna Sutta wrote:"Lord, who craves?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'craves.' If I were to say 'craves,' then 'Who craves?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'From what as a requisite condition comes craving?' And the valid answer is, 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.'"


It seems that the situation is more that to the extent of craving there are beings, and not that beings have cravings.

SN 23.2: Satta Sutta wrote:"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4604
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:31 pm

culaavuso wrote:It seems that the situation is more that to the extent of craving there are beings, and not that beings have cravings.

:goodpost:
Peace,
James

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3332
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:53 am

culaavuso wrote:
SN 23.2: Satta Sutta wrote:"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'


So presumably if one isn't "caught up", then one is an Arahant?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 4604
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California, USA

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Mkoll » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:02 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
culaavuso wrote:
SN 23.2: Satta Sutta wrote:"'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception... fabrications...
"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'


So presumably if one isn't "caught up", then one is an Arahant?

Sounds like it. If there's craving, there's being caught up (clinging maybe?). Since the arahant has extirpated craving, there is no being caught up. No pun intended. :mrgreen:
Peace,
James

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:40 am

I wonder what the difference is between:

Unconscious....

and, "not conscious" ? :shrug:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:31 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:I wonder what the difference is between:

Unconscious....

and, "not conscious" ?


"Unconscious" seems to be an adjective to apply to something, while "not conscious" seems to be a denial of the applicability of an adjective without stating whether another adjective is applicable or not. Both of these adjectives differ from the phrase "cessation of consciousness" in which consciousness is a noun and not an adjective applied to something else.

The view that beings are conscious sounds like one of the forms of self-identification (MN 44) which seems different from a description of the arising and cessation of consciousness.

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:17 pm

Thanks, culaavuso. I was thinking more of Buddha's teachings with regard to consciousness, rather than English grammar.

But, you raise two good points as discussed in (MN 44):

In the case of consciousness subsiding, are we unconscious, or not conscious?

In the case of consciousness not arising, are we unconscious, or not conscious?

Again, since it appears that consciousness arises concurrently from name and form, which in turn is the cause for all other factors leading to dukkha, how do we prevent consciousness and still remain a living being? :shrug:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4758
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:22 pm

There's no prevention of consciousness in that way; it isn't to be ended but to be fully comprehended. What ends are the fermentations.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3332
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:54 pm

daverupa wrote:There's no prevention of consciousness in that way; it isn't to be ended but to be fully comprehended. What ends are the fermentations.


So how do we interpret cessation of consciousness in DO ( cessation mode )?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:59 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:I was thinking more of Buddha's teachings with regard to consciousness, rather than English grammar.


Perhaps it would be more fruitful then to discuss the meanings of some particular teaching of the Buddha's rather than the meaning of English words. Is there a particular discourse that is motivating these questions?

Ron-The-Elder wrote:In the case of consciousness subsiding, are we unconscious, or not conscious?
In the case of consciousness not arising, are we unconscious, or not conscious?


These questions seem to assume that consciousness is a possession of one's self ("we"), and that one's self somehow exists apart from the aggregates.

MN 44: Cūḷavedalla Sutta wrote:There is the case where a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma
...
He does not assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness.


SN 12.12: Moḷiyaphagguna Sutta wrote:When this was said, Ven.-Moliya-Phagguna said to the Blessed One, "Lord, who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?"

"Not a valid question," the Blessed One said. "I don't say 'feeds.' If I were to say 'feeds,' then 'Who feeds on the consciousness-nutriment?' would be a valid question. But I don't say that. When I don't say that, the valid question is 'Consciousness-nutriment for what?' And the valid answer is, 'Consciousness-nutriment for the production of future coming-into-being. When that has come into being and exists, then the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.'"

User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
Posts: 1319
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:42 pm
Location: Concord, New Hampshire, U.S.A.

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ron-The-Elder » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:26 pm

Dearest friend culaavuso,

The questions arise from my understanding of Dependent Origination and/or Dependent Co-Arising:

as stated in my first post as regards the rebirth sequence:

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for aging and death?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition do aging and death come?' one should say, 'Aging and death come from birth as their requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for birth?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does birth come?' one should say, 'Birth comes from becoming as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for becoming?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does becoming come?' one should say, 'Becoming comes from clinging as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for clinging?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does clinging come?' one should say, 'Clinging comes from craving as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for craving?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does craving come?' one should say, 'Craving comes from feeling as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for feeling?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does feeling come?' one should say, 'Feeling comes from contact as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for contact?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does contact come?' one should say, 'Contact comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for name-and-form?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does name-and-form come?' one should say, 'Name-and-form comes from consciousness as its requisite condition.'

"If one is asked, 'Is there a demonstrable requisite condition for consciousness?' one should answer, 'There is.'

"If one is asked, 'From what requisite condition does consciousness come?' one should say, 'Consciousness comes from name-and-form as its requisite condition.'


If some state arises from a cause, then it also subsides (is extinguished) when that cause is removed.

Since consciousness is the root cause of birth, aging, disease, and death, othewise known as dukkha (this entire ball of suffering), then it stands to reason that the extinguishment or subsiding of consciousness causes dukkha to subside. By the same token if consciousness never arises, then dukkha cannot arise.

From this reasoning it follows that if there is no consciousness, there can be no dukkha. But, can we say that if someone is unconscious, can they suffer? And, by the same token, can dukkha arise if we are "not conscious" of it? For example, if I put you under with a general anesthetic and poke you with a needle, do you suffer?

My experience has been that when unconscious such as under the influence of a general anesthetic, one can even have one's heart removed from their chest and feel nothing, whereas if they were conscious they would be in horrendous pain.

On the other hand, if I removed a person's heart from their chest while they were unconscious, and kept it out, they would die, which is another aspect of dukkha.

In the one case, being unconcious eliminates the aspect of dukkha called pain. In the latter case making one unconscious and then permanently removing their heart allows another aspect of dukkha, "death", to arise.

Right? :coffee:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4758
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:40 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:There's no prevention of consciousness in that way; it isn't to be ended but to be fully comprehended. What ends are the fermentations.


So how do we interpret cessation of consciousness in DO ( cessation mode )?


Ron-The-Elder wrote:Right? :coffee:


SN 22.5 wrote: "And what is the disappearance of consciousness?

"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness, any delight in consciousness ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

culaavuso
Posts: 1363
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:27 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby culaavuso » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:21 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:If some state arises from a cause, then it also subsides (is extinguished) when that cause is removed.

Since consciousness is the root cause of birth, aging, disease, and death, othewise known as dukkha (this entire ball of suffering), then it stands to reason that the extinguishment or subsiding of consciousness causes dukkha to subside. By the same token if consciousness never arises, then dukkha cannot arise.


It seems that consciousness also arises dependent on conditions.

SN 12.65: Nagara Sutta wrote:When there is name-and-form, consciousness comes to be; consciousness has name-and-form as its condition.


SN 12.23: Upanisa Sutta wrote:Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.


SN 22.95: Pheṇa­piṇḍ­ūpama Sutta wrote:"Now suppose that a magician or magician's apprentice were to display a magic trick at a major intersection, and a man with good eyesight were to see it, observe it, & appropriately examine it. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in a magic trick? In the same way, a monk sees, observes, & appropriately examines any consciousness that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near. To him — seeing it, observing it, & appropriately examining it — it would appear empty, void, without substance: for what substance would there be in consciousness?

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"


SN 22.57: Sattaṭṭhāna Sutta wrote:And what is consciousness? These six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness. From the origination of name-&-form comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness, i.e., right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. The fact that pleasure & happiness arises in dependence on consciousness: that is the allure of consciousness. The fact that consciousness is inconstant, stressful, subject to change: that is the drawback of consciousness. The subduing of desire & passion for consciousness, the abandoning of desire & passion for consciousness: that is the escape from consciousness.


Ron-The-Elder wrote:From this reasoning it follows that if there is no consciousness, there can be no dukkha. But, can we say that if someone is unconscious, can they suffer? And, by the same token, can dukkha arise if we are "not conscious" of it? For example, if I put you under with a general anesthetic and poke you with a needle, do you suffer?

Is a dreaming person "unconscious"? It seems that this idea of "unconscious" is an idea arising based on consciousness of an experience where "unconscious" is used as a label. As such it seems that "unconscious" only arises when there is consciousness.

DN 15: Mahānidāna Sutta wrote:Therefore, Ānanda, this is the cause, source, origin, and condition for consciousness, namely, mentality-materiality.

“It is to this extent, Ānanda, that one can be born, age, and die, pass away and re-arise, to this extent that there is a pathway for designation, to this extent that there is a pathway for language, to this extent that there is a pathway for description, to this extent that there is a sphere for wisdom, to this extent that the round turns for describing this state of being, that is, when there is mentality-materiality together with consciousness.


AN 4.174: Mahākoṭṭhita Sutta wrote:However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes. However far objectification goes, that is how far the six contact media go. With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.

User avatar
Spiny Norman
Posts: 3332
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Spam, wonderful spam

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:42 am

daverupa wrote:
SN 22.5 wrote: "And what is the disappearance of consciousness?

"There is the case where one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness. As one doesn't enjoy, welcome, or remain fastened to consciousness, any delight in consciousness ceases. From the cessation of delight comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance, the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming, the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.


That's an interesting sutta though I find it somewhat ambiguous. I'm not sure what "disappearance" means in this sentence. In context it seems to indicate cessation of clinging to the aggregates rather than cessation of the aggregates themselves?

"And what is the disappearance of form? ...feeling? ...perception? ...fabrications? What is the disappearance of consciousness"?
"I ride tandem with the random, Things don't run the way I planned them, In the humdrum."
Peter Gabriel lyric

User avatar
daverupa
Posts: 4758
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:11 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:In context it seems to indicate cessation of clinging to the aggregates rather than cessation of the aggregates themselves?


Well, exactly. The cessation of aggregates, strictly speaking, only happens for arahants whose lifespan runs out. Prior to this aggregates yet persist for a time, for an arahant, though absent upadana.

The upadana-aggregates otherwise perdure for an individual, theoretical issues of aggregate-pause such as dreamless sleep & cessation-attainments notwithstanding.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]


Return to “Open Dhamma”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: badscooter, Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot] and 7 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine