the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

chownah: "Do you think that jesus could have made people into zombies?...and would this count as a rebirth?
chownah"
I think that only happens in Haitian Voodoo practice and in horror movies, The most famous recent one being "Abraham Lincoln vs. The Zombies". There are no mentions of zombies in The New Testament to the best of my knowledge.

Haitian Voodo and Zombies http://www.umich.edu/~engl415/zombies/zombie.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Famous Zombie Movies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_zombie_films" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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dhammacoustic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic »

Jesus clearly disagrees with Christianity-
"Watch yourselves and pray in the hope that you may not be born in the flesh ever again, but that you may leave the bitter bondage of life."
"This soul needs to follow another soul in whom the Spirit of life dwells, because she is saved through the Spirit. Then she will never be thrust into flesh again."
"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, let Christ shine on you."
"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit."
"I was given a sound body to live in, because I was already good."
"I declare to you, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:There are no mentions of zombies in The New Testament to the best of my knowledge.
I think it might be said that Lazarus is functionally the same as a zombie. As I understand it, a Haitian sorcerer's purpose in creating a zombie is to arouse in people a conviction as to his necromantic powers. In the Gospel of John, that's more or less Jesus's stated reason for wanting to raise Lazarus from the dead:
  • "When Jesus heard [of Lazarus's sickness], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby." (John 11:4)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

An interesting interview with Ven. Bodhi on the subject:
"AB: Bhante, let's for the sake of argument say there was some way of disproving rebirth. Let’s say science was able to come up with a solid piece of evidence that consciousness was produced by the brain. If that was the case and you were satisfied with the scientific argument, would you still be a Buddhist?

BB: If they actually disproved rebirth, then I would say, regretfully, that my belief in all of the teachings in the suttas about life continuing beyond death – being reborn, this realm, that realm, the ideal of Nibbāna as liberation, the end of the cycle of birth and death – all of that, I guess, would just have to fall by the wayside. But I would still be a Buddhist, a secular Buddhist, because I would still find it beneficial to continue Buddhist practices here and now. I would still find present life benefits from the Buddhist practices I’ve adopted."

http://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/int ... u-bodhi/64" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


It's interesting to note that he said he would still practice Buddhism regardless of if Rebirth was true or not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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dhammacoustic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic »

Bhante, let's for the sake of argument say there was some way of disproving rebirth. Let’s say science was able to come up with a solid piece of evidence that consciousness was produced by the brain. If that was the case and you were satisfied with the scientific argument, would you still be a Buddhist?
Better question;

how could a monk assert that consciousness exists on its own? The Buddha is quite clear that consciousness arises due to conditions, or am I missing something? Consciousness is surely produced by the brain and other physical factors, and is described as 'old kamma' in the suttas.
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mikenz66
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

The interview is worth reading as a whole. There is some interesting discussion on a number of issues:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Whatever position one comes down to, I think the only solution is just to say that that’s the way it is. The physical reductionist, when he’s confronted with consciousness, choice, decision – how consciousness, choice, decision, evaluation, knowledge can arise on the basis of purely physical processes – he’s stuck too. And he has to say that that’s just the way it is. And the metaphysical idealist who holds that mind is the only ultimate reality, when confronted with the close connection between mind and brain, the problem of brain damage, the damage to the functioning of the mind, when he’s confronted with that problem, he has to say that that’s the way it is.
:anjali:
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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

mikenz66 wrote:The interview is worth reading as a whole.
Indeed it is.
BB: ...let's put it this way – when I reflect on the teaching of kamma, I don’t proceed from the level of what is happening in the present and try to track it back to the past, and then say what is happening in the present must be the result of some kamma that I did in the past, or that other people did in the past. For example, when there’s a plane crash – suppose two hundred people die – somebody will raise the question, “Did all of those people have a karmic disposition to die in a plane crash?” And to this I just have to say I don’t know. And I don’t know if the teaching of kamma necessitates that.

So in my reflection I work from the level of the cause forward to what the effect will be.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

dhammacoustic wrote:Consciousness is surely produced by the brain and other physical factors, and is described as 'old kamma' in the suttas.
In the only sutta where the term is found, 'old kamma' means the six bases.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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dhammacoustic
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by dhammacoustic »

Dhammanando wrote:
dhammacoustic wrote:Consciousness is surely produced by the brain and other physical factors, and is described as 'old kamma' in the suttas.
In the only sutta where the term is found, 'old kamma' means the six bases.
Bhante, what is the Pali term used here (↓) for 'consciosuness'?
“Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”

“Exactly so, venerable sir. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another.”

“What is consciousness, Sāti?”

“Venerable sir, it is that which speaks and feels and experiences here and there the result of good and bad actions.”

“Misguided man, to whom have you ever known me to teach the Dhamma in that way? Misguided man, have I not stated in many ways consciousness to be dependently arisen, since without a condition there is no origination of consciousness? But you, misguided man, have misrepresented us by your wrong grasp and injured yourself and stored up much demerit; for this will lead to your harm and suffering for a long time.”
And I don't remember exactly (possibly in the Udana Sutta) the Buddha describes consciousness as something 'fabricated' and 'willed'. And consciousness is not-self AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Dhammanando »

dhammacoustic wrote:Bhante, what is the Pali term used here (↓) for 'consciosuness'?
  • “Sāti, is it true that the following pernicious view has arisen in you: ‘As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is this same consciousness that runs and wanders through the round of rebirths, not another’?”
Viññāṇa.
dhammacoustic wrote:And I don't remember exactly (possibly in the Udana Sutta) the Buddha describes consciousness as something 'fabricated' and 'willed'. And consciousness is not-self AFAIK. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
Yes, I wasn't denying that all consciousness is dependently-originated, but the idea that it's all originated by kamma.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
freedom
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What is rebirth?

Post by freedom »

I would like to know how do you personally understand what does rebirth mean? Please give an example if possible. Thanks.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

As it says in the Discourse on Right View
The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth.
Rebirth as a human being or animal is by rebirth in a womb, for birds and reptiles it is rebirth via an egg, for beings in the heavens and hells, and for hungry ghosts, rebirth is by spontaneous uprising.
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freedom
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:As it says in the Discourse on Right View
The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact — this is called birth.
Rebirth as a human being or animal is by rebirth in a womb, for birds and reptiles it is rebirth via an egg, for beings in the heavens and hells, and for hungry ghosts, rebirth is by spontaneous uprising.
Thanks for your insight. I would like to know more on how rebirth take place (its process)- if we could somehow imagine or by some similes... What is/are rebirth (the five aggregates? mind only? consciousness only? something else? none?)
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Most realms of existence have all five aggregates.

If a match burns dependent on wood and oxygen it is a wood fire. If you light a candle with it, the new flame burns dependent on paraffin vapour and oxygen. The flame does not transmigrate from the match to the candle. The heat of the flame on the match is a condition for the arising of a flame in the candle. Wherever there is a flame, there is also heat, light, and the results of combustion such as smoke and CO2.

See the explanation about Dependent Origination given by the Buddha to Bhikkhu Sāti in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttap.
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freedom
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Re: What is rebirth?

Post by freedom »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Most realms of existence have all five aggregates.

If a match burns dependent on wood and oxygen it is a wood fire. If you light a candle with it, the new flame burns dependent on paraffin vapour and oxygen. The flame does not transmigrate from the match to the candle. The heat of the flame on the match is a condition for the arising of a flame in the candle. Wherever there is a flame, there is also heat, light, and the results of combustion such as smoke and CO2.

See the explanation about Dependent Origination given by the Buddha to Bhikkhu Sāti in the Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Suttap.
When the first flame burns out, how does the second one start? After a person died, how does the next "person" start? What do the second one have from the first one? Do they have anything in common?
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
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