the great rebirth debate

[mikenz66]

Such wallowing would be mental illness. .

A person with right view simply cannot take any formation as sukha. So are you saying that Buddha and aryans have a mental illness? Are you saying that advanced insight stages is mental illness?

No, Tilt said that "wallowing" is mental illness. Different thing.

As Aloka points out:

I am fully aware of what the Buddha said in various suttas and I have experienced different kinds of suffering and been aware of other beings suffering too.However that doesn't mean that I can't be cheerful and need to be wallowing in fear and misery every day instead of making the best of my life. Strange that when I've had feeback and instruction from offline teachers that they've appeared to be relaxed, happy and smiling too !

That's certainly my experience with teachers, and why it's so important to have some contact with them...

As Ajahn Brahm says here:

Joy At Last To Know There Is No Happiness In The World

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha201.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Mike

[Cloud]

Dukkha is mental pain; we can't call it anything else unless we simply call it "change", in which case it loses the flavor of suffering. An enlightened mind does not suffer dukkha. If there is pain, there is pain. It is recognized as a sensation... for what it is. With no mental component of aversion to that pain, there is no dukkha.

[mikenz66]

Here are some references to the all-pervasiveness of dukkha:

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... htm#dukkha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dukkha: 1 'pain', painful feeling, which may be bodily and mental see: vedanā

2 'Suffering', 'ill'. As the first of the Four Noble Truths see: sacca and the second of the three characteristics of existence see: ti-lakkhana the term dukkha is not limited to painful experience as under 1, but refers to the unsatisfactory nature and the general insecurity of all conditioned phenomena which, on account of their impermanence, are all liable to suffering, and this includes also pleasurable experience. Hence 'unsatisfactoriness' or 'liability to suffering' would be more adequate renderings, if not for stylistic reasons. Hence the first truth does not deny the existence of pleasurable experience, as is sometimes wrongly assumed. This is illustrated by the following texts:

;Seeking satisfaction in the world, Bhikkhus, I had pursued my way. That satisfaction in the world I found. In so far as satisfaction existed in the world, I have well perceived it by understanding. Seeking for misery in the world, Bhikkhus, I had pursued my way. That misery in the world I found. In so far as misery existed in the world, I have well perceived it by understanding. Seeking for the escape from the world, Bhikkhus, I had pursued my way. That escape from the world I found. In so far as an escape from the world existed, I have well perceived it by understanding; A. 111, 101.

;If there were no satisfaction to be found in the world, beings would not be attached to the world. If there were no misery to be found in the world, beings would not be repelled by the world. If there were no escape from the world, beings could not escape therefrom; A. 111, 102.

See dukkhatā For texts on the Truth of Suffering, see W. of B. and 'path'.

See The Three Basic Facts of Existence, II. Suffering WHEEL 191/193.

Mike

[Alex123]

Dukkha is mental pain; we can't call it anything else unless we simply call it "change", in which case it loses the flavor of suffering. An enlightened mind does not suffer dukkha. If there is pain, there is pain. It is recognized as a sensation... for what it is. With no mental component of aversion to that pain, there is no dukkha.

So did the Buddha experience emotional pain when he experienced dukkha?

Also did you read the simile of being shot by an arrow? An Aryan still feels physical dukkha, but he doesn't feel emotional dukkha. An unawakened person feels both.

"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain (dukkhāya vedanāya phuṭṭho), does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cloud, please explain

It’s only suffering (dukkha) that comes to be, Suffering that stands and falls away. Nothing but suffering comes to be, Nothing but suffering ceases.”- SN 5.10 Vajirå Ven BB Trans.

Are you saying that nothing arises to an "Arahant"?

[Cloud]

I'm saying that pain felt by an Arahant is not pain. It's just a sensation like any other, recognized as temporary and not-self. It doesn't disturb the mind, hence it is not dukkha in the sense you would think.

[Sanghamitta]

I'm saying that pain felt by an Arahant is not pain. It's just a sensation like any other, recognized as temporary and not-self. It doesn't disturb the mind, hence it is not dukkha in the sense you would think.

You know this how ?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Well of course, unless Cloud is an arahant, Cloud doesn't "know"... but what is said seems in accord with the suttas to me.

Metta,
Retro.

[kirk5a]

I'm saying that pain felt by an Arahant is not pain. It's just a sensation like any other, recognized as temporary and not-self. It doesn't disturb the mind, hence it is not dukkha in the sense you would think.

Hm. So an arahant sees sensations as anicca and anatta, but not dukkha?

[Cloud]

I'm saying the Arahant doesn't experience such things as dukkha. The state of enlightenment is having gone beyond this dukkha; being free from this dukkha. It is only when there is wrong view and thus clinging that this dukkha is experienced.

[Sanghamitta]

I'm saying the Arahant doesn't experience such things as dukkha. The state of enlightenment is having gone beyond this dukkha; being free from this dukkha. It is only when there is wrong view and thus clinging that this dukkha is experienced.

And YOU know this how? You are not quoting sources. You are not saying that this is your understanding of the sources....so I repeat ..you know this how ?

[Cloud]

Basic Buddhism or Buddhism 101 teaches this; it's the very foundation of the Buddha's teachings and why we seek liberation.

The first noble truth teaches that we suffer; this is dukkha.
The second noble truth teaches that the cause is tanha (thirst/craving).
The third noble truth teaches that the cessation of tanha is the cessation of dukkha. This is Nirvana.
The fourth noble truth is the way.

The Arahant has followed the Noble Eightfold Path (the way) to its conclusion, the complete cessation of tanha and thus dukkha.

Try http://www.accesstoinsight.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, it's very helpful to have a good grounding on the basics and then to combine that with dedicated practice to know the truth of things for yourself. Dukkha is not pain; pain is only dukkha when seen with wrong view, by the deluded mind.

[Sanghamitta]

I have studies those teachings for nearly forty years Cloud. With a variety of experienced teachers, and nothing I have heard or read causes me to assume that I have any idea what an Arhant experiences....
I am not indicatiing that your understanding is wrong or faulty. I am saying that you need to provide specific sources when speaking of that which you deduce rather than know. Unless you ARE an Arahant of course.

[mikenz66]

Hi Cloud,

I'd study some more. Try http://www.accesstoinsight.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, it's very helpful to have a good grounding on the basics.

It's certainly not the case that there is a consensus on this issue, as you can see from a number of threads on this board, including this one. Personally I think that is a very difficult and subtle question.

There are quotes above from various suttas and teachers above that are relevant to this issue. Of course, It depends on what you include in dukkha, but it seems clear that an arahant, while still alive, still has painful feelings, which the quotes given above seem to define as dukkha.


Mike

[Cloud]

The dukkha that is human suffering, and this path leads away from, is mind-made. If it were to be said that pain is dukkha, outside of wrong view, then there is no escape from this dukkha. The Buddha taught of escape from a mind-made dukkha, and that is what is at the end of the path. At the end of the path, the Arahant who has been released the same as the Buddha, finds no discomfort in life. No unsatisfactoriness. No suffering. They see that others are suffering, and know that it is only this mind-made suffering which is to blame. No longer separating self from other, they apply discernment and perfect compassion toward the alleviation of this suffering. There is nothing in experience except experience.

[Sanghamitta]

That sounds like a docetic Arahant, Cloud...And you still haven't said whether this is your deduction or personal experience.