the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc
Does this mean that the Buddha could have had unwholesome mental states that could tempt him (but he didn't follow them)? I don't deny this possibility, but it doesn't seem to fit the "orthodoxy" .

Possibly, Mara is defined in the Suttas as just being unwholesome states or stomach pains, that sort of thing
The nun Soma has entered Andhavana (Blind Man's Grove) near Savatthi to practice meditation. Mara, the embodiment of delusion, sees her there and desires to make her waver and abandon her concentration. He addresses her with a verse:

That which can be attained by seers
— The place so hard to arrive at —
Women are not able to reach,
Since they lack sufficient wisdom.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

clw_uk wrote:
The nun Soma has entered Andhavana (Blind Man's Grove) near Savatthi to practice meditation. Mara, the embodiment of delusion, sees her there and desires to make her waver and abandon her concentration. He addresses her with a verse:
The "embodiment of delusion" is idea of the translator. I am not saying that it is wrong, but I don't remember the suttas ever say that Mara, Devas, Realms, are simply mental states that one can live in while being alive for this one life only.
culaavuso
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by culaavuso »

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
clw_uk wrote: There are suttas that state that when there is ignorance based contact, the following links come to be.
SN, page 922 Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.
Its a concept that is repeated a lot in the SN
Could you provide some links to the relevant sutta(s)?

The sutta isn't on access to insight so the only reference i can give is the page number in the physical copy that aj. Bodhi translated, I assumed you would have this? If not I will try and track it down online.
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation on page 922 mentions a "feeling born of ignorance-contact" in SN 22.81, which is available on ATI but translated as "what is felt born of contact with ignorance" by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.
SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote: What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation on page 922 mentions a "feeling born of ignorance-contact" in SN 22.81, which is available on ATI but translated as "what is felt born of contact with ignorance" by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.
SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote: What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
Thanks! I didn't realise it was online



"Well then — knowing in what way, seeing in what way, does one without delay put an end to the effluents? There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self [Identity or "I am"]. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? [what causes the birth of "I am"]


To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. [When there is ignorant based contact then craving leads to "I am", so "I am" is "born" which is the Jati of D.O.]

And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. That craving... That feeling... That contact... That ignorance is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen. It is by knowing & seeing in this way that one without delay puts an end to the effluents." ["I am" is anicca, so its constantly born and dies accordingly, as the links that lead to it are anicca]
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by mikenz66 »

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is on Sutta Central, the first "en" button here:
http://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn+22.81
Specifically: http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.81

Craig: Rather than giving the page number, the sutta number (SN 22.81) would have made it much easier for people to locate on line.

:anjali:
Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

mikenz66 wrote:Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation is on Sutta Central, the first "en" button here:
http://suttacentral.net/search?query=sn+22.81
Specifically: http://suttacentral.net/en/sn22.81

Craig: Rather than giving the page number, the sutta number (SN 22.81) would have made it much easier for people to locate on line.

:anjali:
Mike

Will do
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Also


"It is by clinging Ananda that "I am" occurs, not without clinging"


SN III, Sutta 83
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Mkoll
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mkoll »

clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc
How can you say this for sure?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definitely just a personification of unwholesome states and temptation etc
How can you say this for sure?
Perhaps because Māra said it was? :stirthepot:
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Mkoll
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mkoll »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definitely just a personification of unwholesome states and temptation etc
How can you say this for sure?
Perhaps because Māra said it was? :stirthepot:
:rofl:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mkoll wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Mara was definiately just a personfication of unwholesome states and temptation etc
How can you say this for sure?


Definitely was to strong a word, however the overall impression that I get is that Mara is a teaching device as just another word for the aggregates when we cling to them


"Ven. Sir, it is said, "Mara, Mara." In what way, ven. sir, might there be Mara?


When there is form Radha there might be Mara, or the Killer, or the one who is killed. Therefore Radha see form as Mara, see it as the Killer, see it as the one who is killed. See it as a disease, a dart, a tumour, as misery, as real misery. Those who see it thus see rightly."


SN III Chapter 2, Sutta 1

And so on for the other aggregates
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

culaavuso wrote: Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation on page 922 mentions a "feeling born of ignorance-contact" in SN 22.81, which is available on ATI but translated as "what is felt born of contact with ignorance" by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu.
SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote: What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.
I'm still not clear as to the meaning here. Does "what is felt" refer to vedana, and if so, is it saying that vedana can be ignorant or not ignorant?
What exactly is meant by "contact with ignorance"? Does it just mean "while ignorance persists"?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote: The point I was trying to make though is that D.O. is multifaceted in the Suttas, being taught operating over mind moments and also over lifetimes depending on which sutta we look at.
But I'm still not clear how you're interpreting DO to support the idea of moment-to-moment rebirth. Could you describe the model you're using?
You've referred to ignorant contact, but which factor of contact are you assigning the ignorance to - is it sense organ, sense object or sense-consciousness?
I'd have thought that ignorant feeling would make more sense, since craving arises in dependence on feeling and craving is the problem.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

[quote
SN 22.81: Pārileyyaka Sutta wrote:What is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by what is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that. And that fabrication is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen.][/quote]
culaavuso,
Thanks for bringing this reference here. For those looking for support for the idea of momentary rebirth, I think this is a good one. Notice in the portion presented here it talks about feelings being born and I'm pretty sure most people are familiar with feelings and how they arise and pass away many times even in a few moments......so you could say that feelings get reborn on a momentary basis. Also in the same sutta there is a talk about various views of self and how these are all fabrications born of feelings born of ignorance and the craving that arises from it. So, feelings are born and fabrications are born.......seems clear that rebirth happens for feelings and fabrications...if not for what we identify as the feeling or the fabrication then surely for the process of feeling and fabrication......and notice how the discussion of self doctrines is said to be born suggesting the rebirth of self doctrine on a moment to moment basis. That is to say that our sense of self as a fabrication is in a constant state of rebirth from moment to moment. Seems like we are getting pretty close to a complete expication of a doctrine of rebirth and all based in the moment to moment time frame......I guesss......don't know for sure......
chownah
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