the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Maybe his enlightenment was a hallucination too. ;)
I think it is reasonable if you want to consider this too, but it is not so directly on topic as considering his rebirth memories.
chownah
I think it's fine to question these things, and the authenticity of the suttas, etc, what bemuses me is how selective people can be about which bits they question.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
visitin
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by visitin »

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:It seems that the Buddha only slept a couple of hours a night so I think it is reasonable to at least consider the possibility that his rebirth memories might be hallucinations.
trollnah
Maybe his enlightenment was a hallucination too. ;)
Agreed! Instructions provided in "Aparihani Sutta", if followed earnestly, will induce such hallucinations.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Maybe his enlightenment was a hallucination too. ;)
I think it is reasonable if you want to consider this too, but it is not so directly on topic as considering his rebirth memories.
chownah
I think it's fine to question these things, and the authenticity of the suttas, etc, what bemuses me is how selective people can be about which bits they question.
Yeah, I know what you are saying......personally, I question all of it from time to time.
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Mkoll
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mkoll »

visitin wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
chownah wrote:It seems that the Buddha only slept a couple of hours a night so I think it is reasonable to at least consider the possibility that his rebirth memories might be hallucinations.
trollnah
Maybe his enlightenment was a hallucination too. ;)
Agreed! Instructions provided in "Aparihani Sutta", if followed earnestly, will induce such hallucinations.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Now, I know I'm unclear in what you're trying to say. :tongue:

Can you expand on that claim please?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Nikaya35
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nikaya35 »

There is 2 points that can be discussed in the rebirth topic. 1) are karma and rebirth part of the Buddha teachings according to the sutras? 2) do you believe in rebirth ? Or its rebirth true or not ? The answer of the first question is a very easy one. Both doctrines of karma and rebirth are part of the Buddha teachings according to the nikayas and the goal of classical buddhism is to stop the circle of literal rebirths ( samsara ). Do you believe in rebirth ? I would say yes. There isn't any empirical evidence of karma and rebirth being true. So why I believe in this? Because I have faith in the Buddha. One can't be a buddhist without any faith or confidence in the Buddha message. I don't know by direct experience the truth of karma and rebirth. The practice of buddhism like any religion is a gamble. We can't know for sure if death is the end . Atleast most of us can't. It's really ridiculous to argue using the nikayas that the Buddha doesn't teach karma and rebirth in a literal sense. The same rebirth debate is in another buddhist site . It's fine to be skeptical of karma and rebirth . It's bullshit to argue to death that both doctrines aren't part of the Buddha teachings.
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

"Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to this world; my consciousness will not be dependent on this world... I won't cling to the world beyond; my consciousness will not be dependent on the world beyond.' That's how you should train yourself."
From MN143


chownah
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

= SpinyNorman "I think it's fine to question these things, and the authenticity of the suttas, etc, what bemuses me is how selective people can be about which bits they question."
=Chownah "Yeah, I know what you are saying......personally, I question all of it from time to time.
The questioning arises from inexperience, failure to experiment and to practice what has been studied and learned, or at least a lack of any direct memory of rebirth. Additionally, we have a tendency to forget things when exposed to severe trauma. Death and birth are both in fact traumatic no matter what the mechanisms. For that reason I avoid discussions regarding post-mortem rebirth, which based on my experience ( or lack there-of) cannot be proven, at least not by me, and stick to more local and recent experiences such as rebirth of mind contents as thoughts, words, attitudes, convictions and intentions for example; death and rebirth of somatic cells in our bodies, which can be directly observed under the microscope. Rebirth of convictions from experience as life's facts are revealed (changing our minds!) is perhaps the easiest for me to see during ongoing mindful observations :tongue:

As for faith, Buddha has been so correct on so many fronts that I have personally developed a deep faith in his teachings. From my own practice of validation and verification, following Buddha's advice in his "Charter of Free Inquiry", I have found his avisories always to be spot-on! Therefore, what I cannot validate and verify now in this life, I give "credit", based upon Buddha's past successes. :bow:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Ron-The-Elder wrote: The questioning arises from inexperience, failure to experiment and to practice what has been studied and learned, or at least a lack of any direct memory of rebirth. Additionally, we have a tendency to forget things when exposed to severe trauma. Death and birth are both in fact traumatic no matter what the mechanisms. For that reason I avoid discussions regarding post-mortem rebirth, which based on my experience ( or lack there-of) cannot be proven, at least not by me, and stick to more local and recent experiences such as rebirth of mind contents as thoughts, words, attitudes, convictions and intentions for example; death and rebirth of somatic cells in our bodies, which can be directly observed under the microscope. Rebirth of convictions from experience as life's facts are revealed (changing our minds!) is perhaps the easiest for me to see during ongoing mindful observations :tongue:

As for faith, Buddha has been so correct on so many fronts that I have personally developed a deep faith in his teachings. From my own practice of validation and verification, following Buddha's advice in his "Charter of Free Inquiry", I have found his avisories always to be spot-on! Therefore, what I cannot validate and verify now in this life, I give "credit", based upon Buddha's past successes. :bow:

:goodpost: :clap:


:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
david.sojourn
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by david.sojourn »

If you are debating, you are not practicing anything but running the mind and the mouth.

Nobody who debates rebirth will ever get closer to understanding it.

It must be understood through Stream Entry.

The modern world wants to Analyze everything. Intellectually "Figure it out".

It will never work.

You will debate and debate, and just when you're close, plop, someone will have a new argument. Some people will leave the debate stuck to their own notions (Conventions, attachment to ego), and others will only get more and more confused.

My advice is to practice. You won't find anything in this thread except more manure to clutter your mind.

Rebirth cannot be analytically grasped. You must work toward enlightenment before that kind of information is revealed to you. When you get it, you will get it. And when you don't get it, you will just argue, paradoxically, forever and ever, and ever--Yet not be a single mindful step any closer to your goal.
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Mkoll
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Mkoll »

david.sojourn wrote:If you are debating, you are not practicing anything but running the mind and the mouth.

Nobody who debates rebirth will ever get closer to understanding it.

It must be understood through Stream Entry.

The modern world wants to Analyze everything. Intellectually "Figure it out".

It will never work.

You will debate and debate, and just when you're close, plop, someone will have a new argument. Some people will leave the debate stuck to their own notions (Conventions, attachment to ego), and others will only get more and more confused.

My advice is to practice. You won't find anything in this thread except more manure to clutter your mind.

Rebirth cannot be analytically grasped. You must work toward enlightenment before that kind of information is revealed to you. When you get it, you will get it. And when you don't get it, you will just argue, paradoxically, forever and ever, and ever--Yet not be a single mindful step any closer to your goal.
Not everyone is as mature in mind as you believe you are. This kind of talk may help people clear up some of their questions they have surrounding rebirth. You might have answered those questions for yourself in the past. But for others, this is all new. Calling it all manure is pretty one-sided, dontcha think?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

david.sojourn wrote: You won't find anything in this thread except more manure to clutter your mind.
You've read all 252 pages, then ?

:)
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

david sojourn wrote: " You won't find anything in this thread except more manure to clutter your mind."
Reminds me of the words we used to sing to the tune of "The Colonel Bogey March":

Bull Sh*t, it makes the grass grow green!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfAvoELaktc
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

Thank you for that. I always knew I had my uses....

:jumping:

:namaste:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



Image

Pay attention, simplify, and (Meditation instruction in a nutshell) "Mind - the Gap."
‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
User avatar
Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: "Thank you for that. I always knew I had my uses...."
Every being walking The Earth will eventually be consumed by the corrupters and then our brothers and sisters, the plants.

B.S. is nothing more than high quality fertilizer. Plants love it! :tongue:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
callmetheseeker
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Rebirth? Really?

Post by callmetheseeker »

I've been a Buddhist for nearly 6 years and the idea of rebirth seemed perfectly normal to me, even before coming into contact with Buddhism. Lately I've become confused, though. Probably because I don't meditate so much, or at all. I feel that death seems like falling into nothingness. Even if there is rebirth, we can't experience like in the movie Groundhog Day. Why can't we be like: 'Okay, I screwed up my last life, I shouldn't have done this, I should've done that. This life I'll try to do better'?? Wouldn't it be easier? I mean, of course it wouldn't be necessary for us to remember everything from the last life, just a continuation of consciouness would be nice. 'I've died now, wonder how my new life is gonna be....' Then after a bit of early infancy thin memory, it could be... 'Oh, cool. Now I'm French and have two siblings. My parents seem nice.' Does anyone follow me? Why can't it be like Groundhog Day? Things would be kind of awesome. Or maybe not? If that was the case, we could become messed up from so much memories, so much lives... I don't know, I just don't want to fall into the nothing.
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