Spiny
I'm still far from clear. Could you give some practical examples of how you experience identification being reborn? I can see it might make sense to talk about desire being continually "reborn", but I don't think that's what you mean?
Well for example when in meditation, if there is pain and aversion arises then there follow "I dont want this pain, make this pain go away, why dont I just move" etc
Whereas if there is strong mindfulness then the feeling is just observed as it is, no aversion arises and so no sense of self in the moment. That is no "I am in pain" etc, so "I" isnt born through craving/clinging
I think you mean your Dhamma practice doesn't depend on there being an afterlife. For many Buddhists the rebirth teachings are important.
Of course some people find it important, however my argument is that Dhamma practice would remain the same regardless because there would still be dukkha, ageing and death in this life, which we can practice to be free from.
It occurred to me that by "identification" you might be referring to the continual rebirth of self-view, which is something I've considered. But from personal experience and reading the suttas I have the sense that self-view is a deep-seated underlying tendency or condition - this seems to be confirmed by self-view being one of the last fetters to be overcome.
self-view is one of the first three fetters to be overcome, conceit ("I am") is the last
Apparently there is something in the VisuddhiMagga referring to moment-to-moment rebirth, but I can't recall anyone having found a direct quote to support this. In any case I'm pretty sure that Buddhaghosa didn't rewrite DO in the way that Buddhadasa has attempted to do, ie by redefining the nidanas.
I havent come across it either, I just heard that apparently its there.
As for Buddhadasa I dont think he "re-wrote" D.O. but simply explained it as it was, nothing he says goes against Dhamma and everything he says is aimed at non-clinging
but I wouldn't start thinking in terms of birth, ageing and death because it's just adding another layer of conceptual proliferation.
Its not about adding "conceptual proliferation" or thinking about ageing and death, or not thinking about them. Its about just experiencing things as they are, and not giving rise to identification to anything
As I said, when in pain if you just experience it
as it is, then there is no aversion and no "I dont want this" and the mind is empty of self
Its no longer "my" pain but just a sensation
"'It's with possessiveness, friend Ananda, that there is "I am," not without possessiveness. And through possessiveness of what is there "I am," not without possessiveness? Through possessiveness of form there is "I am," not without possessiveness. Through possessiveness of feeling... perception... fabrications... Through possessiveness of consciousness there is "I am," not without possessivenes
So "I am" (or conciet), one of the last fetters, arises due to being possessive
How do we become possessive? Through clinging
Clinging is the cause of "I am" or self
Clinging rises and falls many times a day, therefore "I am" rises and falls many times a day
If we do not cling, then there is no "I am" and so no possession of that which ages and dies, and so no dukka
"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five aggregates subject to clinging, are dukkha."
So " In short, the five aggregates subject to clinging, are dukkha." because when we cling, we possess the aggregates and give rise to "I am". Then where there is "I am" there is birth, ageing, sickness, death, pain, grief etc.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.
We cling because we crave which gives rise to "further becoming", or we can say identification, and we crave because we dont understand that feelings are anicca, dukkha and anatta
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.
When craving ceases then so does identification with the aggregates, one no longer takes them as a possession ... there is non-clinging
and the NEFP is the practice of just being aware, of developing strong mindfulness accompanied by wisdom, that leads to non-identification, non-death and a life that is dukkha free
"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."