the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
chownah
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by chownah »

Spiny Norman wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: I mean, exactly HOW do you let go of everything you truly believe in?
I think a good starting point is seeing clearly that opinions are just opinions, views are just views and beliefs are just beliefs. We don't have to take them quite so seriously, and they can be lightly held.
Of course some views might lead to heaven and some might lead to hell.....but I guess this is no reason to take them quite so seriously.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Does rebirth make life less meaningful?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote: It is attachment is the problem. Eventually one should let go of clinging to all and any views, no matter how "right" they are.
Yes, even materialist views. :tongue:

And supernatural views :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote:
I mean, exactly HOW do you let go of everything you truly believe in?

By seeing how views arise, which is through reactions of like or dislike in relation to ideas that come to be via contact. An idea touches the mind base and a feeling of like or dislike arises, which the ignorant mind follows and proliferates. Then you have views and opinions, metaphysics and philosophy etc.


When your practice the nefp you can see how this process arises, and so you can see how ideas are generated, subject to change and not-self and so you can let go of views, be they political or supernatural, because views and opinions aren't yours :)


However this is a process that comes naturally through following the path. Just as a river slowly inclines to the ocean, so a human following the path slowly inclines towards non-view/non-clinging.


The path is gradual, views cannot be forced away any more than craving in general can be. They are slowly relinquished the more and more a man sees how the mind works. Any forced relinquishment of views is just more craving (aversion).
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:49 am, edited 3 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

How views arise
'If, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions & categories of objectification assail a person, there is nothing there to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the endof the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, & false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease without remainder'

...

"Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one objectifies. Based on what a person objectifies, the perceptions & categories of objectification assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future ideas cognizable via the intellect.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html



And the end result

[This is the teaching of the Buddha:

Paramatthaka Sutta: On Views

"A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world?

"They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views."

Sn 4.5[/quote]
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Does rebirth make life less meaningful?

Post by Spiny Norman »

clw_uk wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote: It is attachment is the problem. Eventually one should let go of clinging to all and any views, no matter how "right" they are.
Yes, even materialist views. :tongue:
And supernatural views :)
Materialist views are harder to let go of. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Does rebirth make life less meaningful?

Post by Ceisiwr »


Materialist views are harder to let go of. :tongue:

Are they? Surely that depends on the individual's preferences?

How do you know this is true for everyone?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Since this discussion has evolved into a discussion of attachment to views, I thought that I would introduce an engineering concept known as parallax.
par·al·lax
ˈparəˌlaks/Submit
noun the effect whereby the position or direction of an object appears to differ when viewed from different positions,
e.g., through the viewfinder and the lens of a camera.
A person's observation is dependent upon that person's position in the universe. Position need not be just of locus or angle of perspective, but it can be a function of rearing, culture, economic or educational status. It is therefore and thereby a social as well as a mathematical and geometric consideration.

The key is attachment to such perspectives. If we realize that our view is affected by these geometrical, and social loci, and we value accuracy and truth, then we in fact become more willing to change our positions so as to get a better, more accurate perspective.

That's all I got. :tongue:
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Since this discussion has evolved into a discussion of attachment to views, I thought that I would introduce an engineering concept known as parallax.
par·al·lax
ˈparəˌlaks/Submit
noun the effect whereby the position or direction of an object appears to differ when viewed from different positions,
e.g., through the viewfinder and the lens of a camera.
A person's observation is dependent upon that person's position in the universe. Position need not be just of locus or angle of perspective, but it can be a function of rearing, culture, economic or educational status. It is therefore and thereby a social as well as a mathematical and geometric consideration.

The key is attachment to such perspectives. If we realize that our view is affected by these geometrical, and social loci, and we value accuracy and truth, then we in fact become more willing to change our positions so as to get a better, more accurate perspective.

That's all I got. :tongue:


Good post, that sounds a bit like the Jain position of Anekāntavāda


However I wouldn't say we should necessarily change one set of views for another, or should aim to find some kind of metaphysical "truth" or "ultimate reality".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

Hello clw_uk,

Some interesting comments you have.

Isn't "don't have any views" a view itself?

Also

Isn't "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...etc.", a view as well?

Thanks,

Alex
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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist »

How can we talk about something if we can't talk about it?
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote:Hello clw_uk,

Some interesting comments you have.

Isn't "don't have any views" a view itself?

Also

Isn't "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...etc.", a view as well?

Thanks,

Alex


Yup since it's just an idea of liberation from views, not an actual liberation. I haven't reached the end yet ;)

But as we are taught, there is an aspiration that leads to detachment

"Is there a path, is there a practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Yes, there is a path, there is a practice, for the abandoning of that desire."

"What is the path, the practice, for the abandoning of that desire?"

"Brahman, there is the case where a monk develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on desire & the fabrications of exertion. He develops the base of power endowed with concentration founded on persistence... concentration founded on intent... concentration founded on discrimination & the fabrications of exertion. This, Brahman, is the path, this is the practice for the abandoning of that desire."

"If that's so, Master Ananda, then it's an endless path, and not one with an end, for it's impossible that one could abandon desire by means of desire."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


So the letting go of all views comes to be gradually and naturally, just like letting go of all desires does :)
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex the same question you ask was addressed here I believe

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Isn't "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...etc.", a view as well?

That's an interesting one! I would say it's a statement of fact rather than an opinion. A knowledge that is achieved through impersonal detached observation, rather than a view point established by following likes or dislikes.



Perhaps a view is the best possible guess, rather than what is fact?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

clw_uk wrote:
Isn't "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...etc.", a view as well?
I would say it's a statement of fact rather than an opinion.
Problem is that science also has "facts" .
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Isn't "Dependent on intellect & ideas, intellect-consciousness arises...etc.", a view as well?
I would say it's a statement of fact rather than an opinion.
Problem is that science also has "facts" .


Why Is that a problem?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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