Cute, but no cigar.clw_uk wrote:How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
But what it his view?
the great rebirth debate
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: the great rebirth debate
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: the great rebirth debate
Greetings,
Craig just seems to be saying that it's not relevant to his practice - a position that he has substantiated on several occasions.
It seems there's a disconnect here between discussion of subjective experience, and arguing of objective fact.... causing this topic to go around in circles (as it does).
Metta,
Retro.
It would be an appeal if it was put forward as an objective argument in debate, but it's not.tiltbillings wrote:Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.clw_uk wrote:Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
Craig just seems to be saying that it's not relevant to his practice - a position that he has substantiated on several occasions.
It seems there's a disconnect here between discussion of subjective experience, and arguing of objective fact.... causing this topic to go around in circles (as it does).
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: the great rebirth debate
And if someone proves categorically that Buddha didnt teach rebirth
And that death is oblivion
I would still practice
The point is how we react to these things, and to let Buddha arise in there here and now
In this moment, as it is
And that death is oblivion
I would still practice
The point is how we react to these things, and to let Buddha arise in there here and now
In this moment, as it is
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: the great rebirth debate
tiltbillings wrote:Cute, but no cigar.clw_uk wrote:How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
But what it his view?
Don't dodge tilt
You cant say I don't understand a persons teaching without understanding it youself
So
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: the great rebirth debate
FineThat's nice, but it still does not change the fact that literal rebirth, as a teaching of the Buddha, is found in the suttas.
But dont we end up practising the same?
You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.
Usually I would suffer with these discussions, wanting rebirth to be true but arguing that it isnt and being caught up in views and opinionsSo, you are suffering?
Now I just notice the feeling
As long as its minful contact friendI am not. I am rather enjoying this.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: the great rebirth debate
Oh, good grief. I am not talking about your body language. I am talking about the page of stuff that you have written.clw_uk wrote:You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: the great rebirth debate
I do not give a rat's ass about your practice. That is your business, not mine, and your practice has not been my focus here.clw_uk wrote:Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either wayAgain, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me
So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
That impacts my practice .... 0
- So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: the great rebirth debate
tiltbillings wrote:Oh, good grief. I am not talking about your body language. I am talking about the page of stuff that you have written.clw_uk wrote:You cant see my body language so its not "physically obvious"I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.
Tilt It takes two to tango
So If my response means I am clinging to a view, then so are you for responding
Unless we both are not clinging and are merely discussing
BTW What is Huang Po's view?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: the great rebirth debate
tiltbillings wrote:I do not give a rat's ass about your practice. That is your business, not mine, and your practice has not been my focus here.clw_uk wrote:Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either wayAgain, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me
So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
That impacts my practice .... 0
Nothing more needs to be said.
- So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
Ok
So we need to be aware of the here and now to stop rebirth in mind moments, and possible future lives
No different from my argument, so I dont get you'r gloating
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: the great rebirth debate
and please dont ignore
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: the great rebirth debate
Ignored.clw_uk wrote:and please dont ignore
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: the great rebirth debate
tiltbillings wrote:Ignored.clw_uk wrote:and please dont ignore
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself?
How can you argue that I dont understand Huang Po's argument (and so I should not use it, which was you argument not mine) and yet not understand it yourself?
Your cant disagree with my understanding/use if you dont understand it or use it yourself ... How can you disagree with something you don't understand yourself...
So please tell us how you understand Huang Po
Otherwise your post means nothing
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: the great rebirth debate
That does not matter to me.clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: the great rebirth debate
So you had a vested interest in "proving" rebirth to be true :/No gloating. The point is made, and it is the only one in this stupid thread that I care about. So, there it is.
And please answer my Huang Po question, which you fail to answer
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: the great rebirth debate
tiltbillings wrote:That does not matter to me.clw_uk wrote:
Otherwise your post means nothing
So in other words you dont know
Dodge
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”