Agnosticism avoids this line of speculation.Lazy_eye wrote:But if we have only one life...
The Buddha said something different to Pāṭaliya.Lazy_eye wrote:At some point a decision must be made because so much hinges on it.
Agnosticism avoids this line of speculation.Lazy_eye wrote:But if we have only one life...
The Buddha said something different to Pāṭaliya.Lazy_eye wrote:At some point a decision must be made because so much hinges on it.
It's fine to be honest and say "I don't know". To quote Ajahn Sumedho (Thai Forest Tradition Abbot) in 'The Sound of Silence':LazyEye wrote: I used to think so too, but increasingly I'm convinced that it's better to have a firm view one way or the other. The reason has to do with the nature of the Buddhist path and what it requires of practitioners.
_/\_“Rebirth,” like “reincarnation,” is a term that’s used generally referring to having gone through a series of different lives, and then there are various views about whether once you get reincarnated into human form where you can go, become a frog again or something like that. I was teaching a retreat in Australia at the Theosophical Society, where people’s views were split. Some held that once you made it to the human level you can’t slide back into a lesser animal one, whereas others insisted that you could. But the truth of the matter is, nobody really knows.
When Ajahn Chah taught about rebirth, he did so in the context of paticcasumappada, or dependent origination. He was talking about the kind of rebirth you can actually witness in daily life; birth is the beginning, death is the ending. How many rebirths have you gone through today, mentally ? What is born dies; what arises, ceases. Rebirth in this sense is actually provable.
In the paticcasamuppada, through desire (tanha) comes attachment (upadana), and then attachment leads to becoming (bhava), becoming leads to rebirth, and rebirth leads to suffering. Jati (birth) is the result of grasping desire.
I quite like the idea of reincarnation and rebirth, on a theoretical level. I’ve no bias against it, but it is speculative and it’s conceptual.”
This has already been acknowledged. The only thing I'd add is that even then it's still prudent to consider actions in the context of post-mortem continuity so as to not engage in what is potentially unskillful in that context. MN 60:daverupa wrote:So, agnosticism also refrains from claiming this.Ñāṇa wrote:At any rate, in a single lifetime scenario...
You don't notice any dukkha at all with the hedonists? I think that this still can be seen clearly... even within the "single lifetime" scenario.Ñāṇa wrote:At any rate, in a single lifetime scenario there's no reason to disengage from any hedonistic pleasures as long as one is not causing harm and can rationalize the pleasure to pain ratio in a cost-benefit analysis.
Hedonism can be moderate, i.e. the pursuit of primarily moderate pleasures. Moreover, people who are ascetic renunciates also experience dukkha unless they're arahants.beeblebrox wrote:You don't notice any dukkha at all with the hedonists? I think that this can be seen clearly... even within the "single lifetime" scenario.Ñāṇa wrote:At any rate, in a single lifetime scenario there's no reason to disengage from any hedonistic pleasures as long as one is not causing harm and can rationalize the pleasure to pain ratio in a cost-benefit analysis.
Even when the hedonism is moderate (and experienced within a single lifetime), the dukkha is still experienced. The fact that the ascetics still have their share of the dukkha can also be seen within the single lifetime. The cessation of dukkha can be seen within a single lifetime... even the dukkha could be seen to originate from within a single lifetime.Ñāṇa wrote: Hedonism can be moderate, i.e. the pursuit of primarily moderate pleasures. Moreover, people who are ascetic renunciates also experience dukkha unless they're arahants.
I don't see anyone here asserting a permanent unchanging self. Selflessness accounts for both change and continuity.beeblebrox wrote:I've figured the only thing which makes this topic confusing (or difficult) for many people is when they would try to view a self within a single lifetime, or they try to spread it across many lifetimes.
If a person tries to stick with the former, then they would become baffled with some people's seeming adherence to multi-lifetime theory (because then they would try to imagine themselves going on for several lifetimes)...
If a person tries to stick with the latter as a preference to the former, then it's probably because of some perceived shortcomings that they saw with the single lifetime theory, which they in turn based on a viewpoint of self... i.e., a common argument against the single lifetime theory is that if a very wicked person dies then there won't be any chance to punish "that person" in the next lifetime, which is a very silly viewpoint to me. It's obviously based on a view of self.
I think that all of that makes for a very fertile ground for dukkha.
I think it's always easy to deny... seems obvious that there's a debate in here, and a lot of clinging, to what?Ñāṇa wrote: I don't see anyone here asserting a permanent unchanging self. Selflessness accounts for both change and continuity.
To state the obvious, this is a discussion pertaining to saṃsāra and related topics such as the right view of the continuity of consciousness, etc. The importance of this subject is explained by Ven. Dhammanando:beeblebrox wrote:I think it's always easy to deny... seems obvious that there's a debate in here, and a lot of clinging, to what?
To put it in another way: if no one in here, as you say, is asserting a permanent, unchanging self... then why all of this concern with the debating?beeblebrox wrote:I think it's always easy to deny... seems obvious that there's a debate in here, and a lot of clinging, to what?Ñāṇa wrote: I don't see anyone here asserting a permanent unchanging self. Selflessness accounts for both change and continuity.
Perhaps clinging to the raft floating across a dangerous river with crocodiles all around. Seems reasonable.beeblebrox wrote:To put it in another way: if no one in here, as you say, is asserting a permanent, unchanging self... then why all of this concern with the debating?beeblebrox wrote:I think it's always easy to deny... seems obvious that there's a debate in here, and a lot of clinging, to what?Ñāṇa wrote: I don't see anyone here asserting a permanent unchanging self. Selflessness accounts for both change and continuity.
If the person didn't make his raft so small, then maybe it could accomodate a single-lifetime viewpoint without too much worry.polarbuddha101 wrote: Perhaps clinging to the raft floating across a dangerous river with crocodiles all around. Seems reasonable.
I don't see it that way. In a one-life scenario, the Buddhist path is a little like having your leg amputated in order to prevent a foot ache; the sacrifice is not justified. If there is only one short life, it is not necessary that we reach a final end to all suffering. It's entirely sufficient that we reduce our suffering and cultivate enough happiness to get us through the single lifespan. All pleasures may be ephemeral, but some of them persist long enough to do the job. Also, embarking on the Buddhist path, if you are serious about it, also entails suffering and difficulty.BlueLotus wrote: Personally for me, full commitment is justified by the urgency to end the pain and suffering I go through right here, right now.
This makes it sound like arahantship is some sort of lifestyle. But I think it is better seen as the release or escape from samsara. The goal of the path is not to find a way of "living in peace" -- that is, to arrive at some better state of being than that experienced by regular people; it's not really about achieving some kind of state at all. It's about bringing an end to being and becoming. The arahant has "reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden". All that remains is physical death and the crumbling of the body. The arahant is desire-less, sexless, emotionally dead, indifferent to pleasure or pain, similar to a withered tree (to use a common metaphor). I guess you could call that "living in peace", if you want.When you have attained nibbana, you continue to live in peace. 2 different concepts.
You seem to be assuming that because i perceive rebirth as being important to Buddhism, that means that I necessarily believe in it.Then why don't you believe in rebirth? You have all the reason to believe in it right?
If we look at this honestly... would that be sufficient, even within the single-lifetime viewpoint? If that was the case, then there would be no reason at all for anyone to come to Buddhism, in the first place.Lazy_eye wrote: If there is only one short life, it is not necessary that we reach a final end to all suffering. It's entirely sufficient that we reduce our suffering and cultivate enough happiness to get us through the single lifespan. All pleasures may be ephemeral, but some of them persist long enough to do the job.